New Machine Day... finally the DMU 50 3rd Gen... - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Eric,

    Here's some eye candy. I've not edited this footage, just took it when the DMGTech was running a program. The machine being open was very interesting to watch.

    The warm up cycle was just that!! The precision of this machine is really excellent. I've taken a video of the readings during calibration, perhaps will put them up next week.

    No feedback yet from anyone regarding my CAM question...

    Best,
    Naresh

    NASHERO Aircraft

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by nsharma View Post
    Eric,

    Here's some eye candy. I've not edited this footage, just took it when the DMGTech was running a program. The machine being open was very interesting to watch.

    The warm up cycle was just that!! The precision of this machine is really excellent. I've taken a video of the readings during calibration, perhaps will put them up next week.

    No feedback yet from anyone regarding my CAM question...

    Best,
    Naresh

    NASHERO Aircraft
    That's WILD ! love it !!!

    Those moves remind me very much of the current DMU 65 but less Z travel of course... (nothing wrong with that).

    Interesting didn't realize you went for the Celos control ? Is that Fanuc on the "Back side" maybe I re-read this thread. The DMG mori guys always twisted my arm to go Heidenhain … But I remember you also have experience / dig the Siemens control (as is better supported in Europe of course)… [OK now I see Siemens 840D SL with Celos.].


    CAM side I tested the snot out of nine or ten permutations of "Top drawer/Top flight" CAD CAM solutions about ten years ago and most of those products have moved on considerably since then (especially the ones that you mention)…


    I have some ideas for you but also you seem quite "wedded " to Siemens PLM idea / Solid Edge... As something slightly different from the norm would you ever consider a CAM package that would be built into / integral to SolidWorks ? [There are pro's and cons... so just interested in your initial "wants, needs and desires"...


    Maybe put my puzzler hat "on" different ways to connect the dots that might be use. I.e. where you are, local support, posts that play nice with that machine and advanced machining strategies that you might actually use rather than strategies that sound cool but only get used 1% of the time and then the rest of the SW is a pain in the arse.







    .

    Meanwhile I re-read over the thread for things I've missed.


    NICE LOOKING machine! Hopefully it will also be a nice DOING machine too (thumbs up) :-)

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  5. #43
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    How is it running, like new I hope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by john-san View Post
    How is it running, like new I hope.


    ^^^^ Nasher's post / vid (nice) (real nice)[Nashero's machine with installation guys pottering around etc... Nice look at the machine in action with some of the covers/ guarding off. ].

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    CAD / CAM


    Try before you buy and that does not mean your post is squared away exactly the way it should be. Get them to prove that there is really "Proven" post for your machine. In your case DMU 50 3rd gen (not so easy as there are not too many in the wild yet, but a decent post and some "servo tuning " on the control should not be beyond the wit of man given enough time and patience).


    Also depends on how much $ you want to spend.

    My current strategy is go for something that your main "goto" in tech support knows inside and out (and is proven)… Then once you have run with for a while (like a 18 months/ couple of years) then maybe go for something more exotic (if you need it)… Take a risk with something.


    So for example in my case ESPRIT (just cuz it's really reliable and the folks I will NEED to lean on know it inside out so real problems can actually be solved) and then go for something that may be more efficient and sophisticated and maybe take care of deburring / part finish in a more sophisticated way that is easy to implement i.e. SOLIDCAM … but less proven and possibly less reliable solution (that's for my applications right now (more mill turn)and possibly more dangerous to your machine. Really depend how much time you have to "dick about/dicker about" vs Balls to the wall high pressure production / job shop environment. I get the impression that maybe you (Nashero) have high mix - low low volume and time to figure shizzle out ?

    In your case I believe HYPERMILL have a good track record for half decent posts with DMG-Mori machines.

    If I wanted to splurge make my life simpler for more complex tasks then I would certainly be tempted by SolidCam… The engineers behind that product are really freaking smart and continually engage with the development and improvement of the product rather than have ONLY sporadic development of a product when it starts to look too old and creaky. Good HSM / trochoidal strategies with genuine 5 axis moves as opposed to trochoidal carried out in a positional way being more reminiscent of 3 axis moves. + what they would call "Adaptive roughing" in sim 5 axes too.

    SolidCAM CAM Software: Simultaneous 5x Milling

    ESPRIT 5-axis

    hyperMILL(R) CAM Strategies for Aircraft Construction

    ^^^I'm sure you have seen this one but they advertise two month free trials for various packages.


    NX-Cam might be slower / slightly less rewarding learning curve / more frustration than what some people are prepared to put up with... It's not to say NX Cam is bad but from the DMG-Mori end of things I think the folks I have spoken to locally would rather "One" go with a CAD/CAM package that the client get's on with and actually likes as sometimes DMG-Mori support staff may find things rather difficult to bridge certain technical/support gaps with certain clients they sold a machine too. [I'm being diplomatic there]… My recommendation is TRY IT and if after six to eight weeks you seem to be getting no-where with it then you have your answer.

    I haven't done anything with MasterCAM in a long long time so I don't know where it's at these days but looks nice enough (shrugging shoulders) for the $ (shrugging even more)… lol. AND maybe bridges a lot of gaps and covers a lot of bases in one "shot"? Low risk but quite sophisticated (depending on support? ) + possibility of having/creating a decent post for your machine / 3rd gen. DMU 50 (beasty).


    __________________________________________________ _______________

    No affiliation to products or vendors listed above.
    Last edited by cameraman; 06-18-2018 at 02:56 PM.

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  11. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by nsharma View Post
    Eric,

    Here's some eye candy. I've not edited this footage, just took it when the DMGTech was running a program. The machine being open was very interesting to watch.

    The warm up cycle was just that!! The precision of this machine is really excellent. I've taken a video of the readings during calibration, perhaps will put them up next week.

    No feedback yet from anyone regarding my CAM question...

    Best,
    Naresh

    NASHERO Aircraft
    I dont know about you guys but I am drooling big time.
    My mouse is itching to klick on the quote infront of me.

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    Today is the deep cleaning day! Lets see how our old, and now being phased out CIMCLEAN will do the cleaning of the new machine. Then we'll put in 2% blaser and flush out everything, then put in 8% blaser.

    Sent from my SM-T825 using Tapatalk

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    Finished deep cleaning of the machine with CIMCLEAN for over 3 hours running the cleaning agent through the entire system. Then we've decanted the machine, and the blaser folks were here, and now we have 2% blaser in the machine. I'll run it empty for a day or so.

    One big gremlin is the air compressor, we have an ingersoll-rand screw compressor and its not had a break for the entire time the machine has been on. Apparently the spindle is an air guzzler. Now you folks don't want to see a machine puttering around with all of its orifices ejecting fluids ;-) but if that's not the case, and you do want to see that, I can upload another small vid to show just that. One step at a time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nsharma View Post
    Finished deep cleaning of the machine with CIMCLEAN for over 3 hours running the cleaning agent through the entire system. Then we've decanted the machine, and the blaser folks were here, and now we have 2% blaser in the machine. I'll run it empty for a day or so.

    One big gremlin is the air compressor, we have an ingersoll-rand screw compressor and its not had a break for the entire time the machine has been on. Apparently the spindle is an air guzzler. Now you folks don't want to see a machine puttering around with all of its orifices ejecting fluids ;-) but if that's not the case, and you do want to see that, I can upload another small vid to show just that. One step at a time.
    The air consumption could be related to the CimClean. My Cinci products (mills) have always gobbled ridiculous amounts of air.


    ------------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by nsharma View Post
    <Snip>
    Now you folks don't want to see a machine puttering around with all of its orifices ejecting fluids ;-)
    <Snip>
    OHHHHH I do!

    I guess I'm just a pervert at heart.

    [Bring a mac and "brolley" ].

    _________________________________________


    Some of these machines look so much cooler on the inside than on the outside, I almost wish the guarding was transparent Poly carbonate/ near bullet proof glass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    OHHHHH I do!

    I guess I'm just a pervert at heart.

    [Bring a mac and "brolley" ].

    _________________________________________


    Some of these machines look so much cooler on the inside than on the outside, I almost wish the guarding was transparent Poly carbonate/ near bullet proof glass.
    I knew that!! So here you go:
    https://youtu.be/fh-s_CZtF9Q

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    Total price tag (in US dollars please)
    Machine, floor prep, freight, installation, in-house engineering and layout money, other miscellaneous costs outside of tooling to get to the point of making chips?
    Not the price tag of the machine but how much money to make the first real cut.
    Just looking for a real world view of the costs to play in this game.
    Bob

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  22. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Total price tag (in US dollars please)
    Machine, floor prep, freight, installation, in-house engineering and layout money, other miscellaneous costs outside of tooling to get to the point of making chips?
    Not the price tag of the machine but how much money to make the first real cut.
    Just looking for a real world view of the costs to play in this game.
    Bob
    I think that would be different in Europe and USA.

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  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Yup, when I used to do these (layouts) the HAAS people were the worst.

    Like many facilities, there was a rule that all machines must be bolted down.

    HAAS said it wasn't necessary, and didn't want to provide and info.


    Until our purchasing agent (he really was a very nice guy) got involved.....
    I don't know when you had that problem, but Haas has had anchoring diagrams on their website for all their machines for at least a year or more.

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by nsharma View Post
    I knew that!! So here you go:
    https://youtu.be/fh-s_CZtF9Q
    Interesting how and where they mounted your laser tool setter on the casting on the left hand side (as you stand at the machine).

    Were there any other options as to where one might mount that or is that the German/pfronten wisdom as to why anyone would want it anywhere else ?

    Looking good man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Total price tag (in US dollars please)
    Machine, floor prep, freight, installation, in-house engineering and layout money, other miscellaneous costs outside of tooling to get to the point of making chips?
    Not the price tag of the machine but how much money to make the first real cut.
    Just looking for a real world view of the costs to play in this game.
    Bob
    I should be able to reconstruct that...

    The 3rd Gen has a lot of things as standard such as scales and specialized cooling throughout. The DMU 65 MONOBLOCK with a LOT thrown in was about $300K (60 tools) probes pre-setter etc. As a standard package. [bigger machine/ different layout].

    I believe the idea with the DMU 50 3rd gen is that its about $200K to be reasonably kitted out but ALSO a lot comes as standard such as scales and cooling options. I think Base price if memory serves me right is in the neighborhood of $175K but properly blinged out in the neighborhood of $220k. Usually with DMG -Mori (as you know @CB) once you throw in all the necessary "extras" that's when you get sticker shock for useful machine; in this case DMG/DMG-Mori have tried to turn that all upside down by having standard model with fewer variants and hence more affordable and yet capable.

    I think Nashers/Nashero went all out on a few extras like the 60 tools and the automation option + other things.


    There was a decent thread discussing Special "More affordable" HERMLE vs. the DMU 50 3rd gen... That discussed various pricing and contingencies.

    DMU50 3rd Gen. or Hermle C250





    It IS a very competitive machine I think for the $ … I think that's it's reason for existing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corym View Post
    I don't know when you had that problem, but Haas has had anchoring diagrams on their website for all their machines for at least a year or more.
    I stopped doing them about 10 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    I should be able to reconstruct that...

    The 3rd Gen has a lot of things as standard such as scales and specialized cooling throughout. The DMU 65 MONOBLOCK with a LOT thrown in was about $300K (60 tools) probes pre-setter etc. As a standard package. [bigger machine/ different layout].

    I believe the idea with the DMU 50 3rd gen is that its about $200K to be reasonably kitted out but ALSO a lot comes as standard such as scales and cooling options. I think Base price if memory serves me right is in the neighborhood of $175K but properly blinged out in the neighborhood of $220k.
    I think your numbers might be from the 2nd gen machine. Base price on the 3rd gen is closer to $250k. There may be some additional confusion, because there was blow-out pricing on the last of the Davis, CA build 2nd gen machines.

    We have 4 2nd gen machines out of Seebach, and fully loaded, they were north of 300k.

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  30. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    I think your numbers might be from the 2nd gen machine. Base price on the 3rd gen is closer to $250k. There may be some additional confusion, because there was blow-out pricing on the last of the Davis, CA build 2nd gen machines.

    We have 4 2nd gen machines out of Seebach, and fully loaded, they were north of 300k.
    YES

    and

    Nope.

    The things IS I have no idea what they are going to do with the second gen machines? You are right about the price of second gen machines and history thereof...

    But 3rd Gen is new deal.


    DMG-Mori has decided to be really aggressive... In this market space. It's not same old same old.


    For example Matsuura have very aggressive and useful price / performance "ratios" with their MX 520 and MX 330.

    Hardinge have their behemoth for $260K


    MAZAK have gotten their act together too with machines between $190 K and $300K

    Affordable Hermle (slow but standard configuration in the $300K space)

    Even Okuma M460V 5ax inentical but better than the MU machine that it's based on (base price) $270k with scales and so on (but kitted out better at $300 to $320).


    If a DMU 50 3rd gen is closer to 300K then you'd bet better off perhaps buying a DMU 65 monoblock. (What's the point?).


    Things change. (surprisingly) BUT I agree there is skism/major spilt between old and new in terms of price / performance ratio. The idea is that better IS BETTER ? Isn't that what its supposed to be about ?

    'ere are you able to "bug" your local DMG guys for ball park figures ?


    I don't want to bug them as they know I've gone all MAZAK and I'm not going to waste their time. But that's also inline with the Euro / European / UK price structure as well.

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    Base price and options in Europe listed in DMG mori Magazine add last year... That's how I turned nasher's onto the DMU 50 3rd gen amongst MANY other things ;-) [No worries the bloke knows heaps about carbon fiber]. Originally he wanted/ looking at a CMX 1100 with those weird / swiss 5 axis unit made of two 4 axis units.

    https://de.dmgmori.com/resource/blob...171de-data.pdf

    Page 13 ^^^

    Listed 165K Euro.

    3rd Gen is now on sale or available in the USA... *
    __________________________________________________ _______

    * No affiliation

    ___
    ___Haas UMC 750 starts at $148K (not a million miles away for a 5 axis Robodrill $ wise)…

    If the 3rd Gen comes from Germany don't tell Trump "Shhhhh…"


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