New machine day soon, but first we have to pick the VMC
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 33
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    120
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    76

    Question New machine day soon, but first we have to pick the VMC

    The parts we need to make are mostly 6061, everything is plate or extruded bar work. The largest of these parts is about 4 feet long and need to be straight, flat, and parallel. This means a 3 axis VMC with 50 inches of X travel is the preferred machine. We are also considering any VMC with an X travel down to 40 inches. Some of the parts have large through bores about 3.5" in diameter and up to 6 inches deep. For these we need a work probe and coolant through the spindle. This is production, not prototyping, so a conveyor is a must. Also the machine lead time can't be longer than a couple months, in-stock is preferable.

    I've been getting quotes and visiting dealers in the Los Angeles area. One of the dealers asked to not share his exact quote, so I've kept these numbers ballpark-ish since they aren't exact anyway.


    Haas VF-4___________(50 x 20 x 25) with (Conveyor, Probes, CTS) Price ~100k
    Doosan DNM 6700__(51 x 26 x 24) with (Conveyor, Probes, CTS) Price ~135k - 150k
    YCM XV-1250A______(50 x 20 x 21) with (--------, Probes, CTS) Price ~120k
    Sharp SV-5128______(51 x 27 x 27) with (Conveyor, Probes, CTS) Price ~120k
    Hardinge GX-1300__(51 x 27 x 25) with (Conveyor, Probes, ---) Price ~125k

    40 inch machines below:

    Okuma M560-V______(41 x 22 x 18) with (Conveyor, Probes, ---) Price ~135k
    DMG Mori CMX1100_(43 x 22 x 20) with (Conveyor, ------, ---) Price ~110k
    Hardinge V1000_____(40 x 24 x 24) with (Conveyor, Probes, ---) Price ~90k



    There are many other machines in 40-60 inch X travel range I've been interested in, but ridiculous lead times and/or prices make them a no-go. There are still several machines in the 40 inch range that haven't gotten quoted yet. A couple of pricing trends I've noticed are that anything over 40 inches has a huge price jump, and also the Taiwanese builders aren't nearly as competitive as they used to be. Or perhaps the dealers are just quoting me high.

    I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, tell me your experience with these brands and dealers. If you were quoted significantly different, tell us! I can read all the product brochures in the world but the people on this forum are the only way to figure out which brands/dealers are trustworthy and have good service.

  2. Likes Grubbster, jondajaba liked this post
  3. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Hillsboro, New Hampshire
    Posts
    5,464
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1274
    Likes (Received)
    3793

    Default

    Aside from the obvious aspects of good support in your area, you may want to focus on not just a conveyor for chip handling, but the whole "system" of coolant and chips. By that I mean making sure coolant isn't carried away too aggressively with the chips, leading to frequent replenishing of the tank, and greater expense for chemicals.

    So a chip slinger/wringer/briquetting machine inline with your machine may help. Doing a careful analysis of the chip flow paths within the machine, looking for pile-up points is useful. Making sure the CTS union and other parts can be repaired or replaced quickly, and there's good filtration of the coolant. All this stuff will make your process smoother when done well, or a major headache if done poorly.

    Don't gloss over this and think it's all the same for each machine. Ideally find shops using the finalists and check for their experiences.

  4. Likes Red James, Grubbster liked this post
  5. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Plainfield, Indiana, USA
    Posts
    1,617
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1181
    Likes (Received)
    845

    Default

    ^^^ Yes! If most of your work is aluminum then you need a chip conveyor specifically designed for aluminum. Most generic conveyors will let the aluminum fines and even large chips 'float' and never be expelled, making a real mess to clean up when you least need to be cleaning up rather than making chips.

  6. Likes Mooner liked this post
  7. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Southeastern US
    Posts
    6,346
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    807
    Likes (Received)
    2731

    Default

    See my other posts here and there about aluminum and conveyors. You need to have them re-quote requiring a drum-filtering conveyor system (Mayfran Concep or equivalent) or you will be losing hours upon hours of production to chips and coolant. DO NOT let the vendors talk you out of this, they are FOS if they do. This conveyor will not be cheap - >$20k for the conveyor and tank, probably closer to $30k. It will pay for itself in 3 months. I am Engineering responsible for machining that produces literally tons of aluminum chips per week for more than 20 yrs - spend the money, this decision will make you money, not cost it. The normal cheap conveyors they are pricing you will pack the coolant tanks full of aluminum chips in a matter of hours.

  8. Likes Kaszub, dstryr, cameraman, gkoenig, Mooner and 4 others liked this post
  9. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    New York
    Posts
    816
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    294
    Likes (Received)
    194

    Exclamation

    Tonytn36
    I wish i could give you 100 thumbs up for that post.

  10. Likes cameraman, Mooner liked this post
  11. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    New York
    Posts
    816
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    294
    Likes (Received)
    194

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Generic Default View Post
    The parts we need to make are mostly 6061, everything is plate or extruded bar work. The largest of these parts is about 4 feet long and need to be straight, flat, and parallel. This means a 3 axis VMC with 50 inches of X travel is the preferred machine. We are also considering any VMC with an X travel down to 40 inches. Some of the parts have large through bores about 3.5" in diameter and up to 6 inches deep. For these we need a work probe and coolant through the spindle. This is production, not prototyping, so a conveyor is a must. Also the machine lead time can't be longer than a couple months, in-stock is preferable.

    I've been getting quotes and visiting dealers in the Los Angeles area. One of the dealers asked to not share his exact quote, so I've kept these numbers ballpark-ish since they aren't exact anyway.


    Haas VF-4___________(50 x 20 x 25) with (Conveyor, Probes, CTS) Price ~100k
    Doosan DNM 6700__(51 x 26 x 24) with (Conveyor, Probes, CTS) Price ~135k - 150k
    YCM XV-1250A______(50 x 20 x 21) with (--------, Probes, CTS) Price ~120k
    Sharp SV-5128______(51 x 27 x 27) with (Conveyor, Probes, CTS) Price ~120k
    Hardinge GX-1300__(51 x 27 x 25) with (Conveyor, Probes, ---) Price ~125k

    40 inch machines below:

    Okuma M560-V______(41 x 22 x 18) with (Conveyor, Probes, ---) Price ~135k
    DMG Mori CMX1100_(43 x 22 x 20) with (Conveyor, ------, ---) Price ~110k
    Hardinge V1000_____(40 x 24 x 24) with (Conveyor, Probes, ---) Price ~90k



    There are many other machines in 40-60 inch X travel range I've been interested in, but ridiculous lead times and/or prices make them a no-go. There are still several machines in the 40 inch range that haven't gotten quoted yet. A couple of pricing trends I've noticed are that anything over 40 inches has a huge price jump, and also the Taiwanese builders aren't nearly as competitive as they used to be. Or perhaps the dealers are just quoting me high.

    I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, tell me your experience with these brands and dealers. If you were quoted significantly different, tell us! I can read all the product brochures in the world but the people on this forum are the only way to figure out which brands/dealers are trustworthy and have good service.
    I have all CNC's Japan made machines, but I also love Hardinge so from your list you guest it even if it is not 100% USA made, think Harding is the way to go.

  12. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    499
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    181
    Likes (Received)
    281

    Default

    How about the Brother S1000? 40" x 20". over 150,000 machines installed. Built in Japan. great local support in Yorba Linda with an over 30 year track record with Brother in SoCal and USA. Yamazen will be happy to take a look at your applications and show you what they can do. There are machines set up in Yorba Linda for demos/tests. There is an extruder in Chino, CA that has 8 Brother machines, the latest being S1000s. Feel free to contact me if you would like more information.

  13. Likes mkd liked this post
  14. #8
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Minnesota
    Posts
    466
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    365
    Likes (Received)
    249

    Default

    You don't list the spindle speeds with those machines. Running aluminum I expect you'll be RPM limited most of the time.

    We got new a VF-3SS with 15K RPM, 1000 PSI spindle coolant, and 41 tools about two and a half years ago. It's been great for our palm-sized Ti and 17-4 medical parts, but we do get some chip buildup with long runs and have to shove and wash them down, but we only have the auger.

  15. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    120
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    76

    Default

    mhajicek,

    The parts are all simple 2.5d slabs and plates, no small taps or drills or endmills. I was more concerned about spindle power, most of these machines are in the 20-25 horsepower range, M560 is of course 35hp. I think it would be hugely beneficial to make the large deep bores with the biggest indexable drill I can get, which means torque and power rather than than RPM. Every machine listed is 10k, 12k, or 15k except the haas at 8.1k. Haas is the backup plan.

    So far I've picked these machines based on their availability and how rigid/robust the construction is. The Doosan and the Sharp seem to be the heaviest built. I'd like a heavier machine if I cut a lot of steel or cast iron in the future.

    Of the machines listed, only the Mori CMX says it comes with a drum filter conveyor. Whatever we get, it will not be running even close to 24/7 on average, but it needs to perform well when I'm running it and it must last into the future for whatever parts we make with it.


    Thanks to everyone who has replied so far, I'd like to hear more!

  16. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    671
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    32
    Likes (Received)
    47

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaszub View Post
    I have all CNC's Japan made machines, but I also love Hardinge so from your list you guest it even if it is not 100% USA made, think Harding is the way to go.
    We have six Doosans and they have been great machines. Have you considered Hyundai at all? I've been hearing some really good things about their vertical mills.

  17. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Alabama
    Posts
    1,852
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1067
    Likes (Received)
    720

    Default

    Tony is right about the conveyor. I let Mori tell me I really didn't need the upgraded one....big mistake running production aluminum.
    I personally think the Haas should be your last choice. With Aluminum you really need a machine that can manage the chip build-up. Look at the torque ratings for each machine if your using inserted drills.

  18. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    499
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    181
    Likes (Received)
    281

    Default

    The High Torque Brother machines drilled STEEL 2" and then 3" with these drills from Allied Machine:

    20160916_142359.jpg

    watch this video beyond the face mill:
    [brother]Machining example of the "S1X1" and "T-2".(steel) - YouTube

    and yes, they are offered with Mayfran CleanSweep conveyors (and others) which work very well with aluminum and steel.

  19. Likes jong liked this post
  20. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    poulsbo, wa, usa
    Posts
    513
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    25
    Likes (Received)
    196

    Default

    you might look at VF4SS with quad augers. I run a lot of alum on a normal single auger and it gets old fast if your running a lot of chips ,,, but a quad auger would keep up. well there a 12k spindle you can plow alum all day with a rougher at about 8k and finish at 12k ,,, Haas really starts to drop power over 8k and it was a learning curve to spin slower but move faster.

    I might be old school but after seeing a BT30 holder and the size of the pull stud It would not be my choice for a Alum hog.

  21. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Washington
    Posts
    133
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    138
    Likes (Received)
    81

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonytn36 View Post
    See my other posts here and there about aluminum and conveyors. You need to have them re-quote requiring a drum-filtering conveyor system (Mayfran Concep or equivalent) or you will be losing hours upon hours of production to chips and coolant. DO NOT let the vendors talk you out of this, they are FOS if they do. This conveyor will not be cheap - >$20k for the conveyor and tank, probably closer to $30k. It will pay for itself in 3 months. I am Engineering responsible for machining that produces literally tons of aluminum chips per week for more than 20 yrs - spend the money, this decision will make you money, not cost it. The normal cheap conveyors they are pricing you will pack the coolant tanks full of aluminum chips in a matter of hours.
    I just upgraded to this FILTERING chip conveyor for my M560:
    Turbo MH25 Chip Conveyor

    Works much better than the HB model that “came with” the machine... Filters down to 250 micron and pulls a lot of the fines out. Much less stuff floating in the tank.

  22. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Aberdeen, UK
    Posts
    3,152
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1114
    Likes (Received)
    1142

    Default

    If you expect to be doing heavy MMR don't forget that fast roughing of aluminium pulls a lot of power. I can (and regularly do) peg a 28KW (38hp) 50 taper with a 40mm ripper style cutter.

    Some of the machines on your list will run circles around some of the other machines on your list for that type of work.

  23. #16
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Country
    SOUTH AFRICA
    Posts
    1,478
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1059
    Likes (Received)
    607

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    If you expect to be doing heavy MMR don't forget that fast roughing of aluminium pulls a lot of power. I can (and regularly do) peg a 28KW (38hp) 50 taper with a 40mm ripper style cutter.

    Some of the machines on your list will run circles around some of the other machines on your list for that type of work.
    Holy CRAP! I'd love to see that! Probably can't see anything, just chips flying.

  24. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Washington
    Posts
    3,335
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    645
    Likes (Received)
    1717

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NAST555 View Post
    Holy CRAP! I'd love to see that! Probably can't see anything, just chips flying.
    If you'd like that, you need to watch some of the aluminum machining centers that have 30+K RPM and 100+HP, its near crazy.

  25. Likes mhajicek, NAST555 liked this post
  26. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    120
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    76

    Default

    Speaking of high RPM,

    40 taper spindles that do over 10k RPM are all ceramic bearings. 10k and below spindles have steel bearings. I've read on these forums that ceramic bearing spindles are easier to damage/destroy in crashes that wouldn't break an equivalent steel bearing spindle. Does anyone have any experience with this?

    Do higher speed spindles have shorter service lives? Would you use different tool paths for a 15k inline ceramic spindle compared to a 10k belted steel spindle? Can't tell if I'm overthinking this or if these are legitimate concerns when buying a new machine. Both will make my parts no doubt, but what I'm asking is the long term trade offs and value/expenses.

  27. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    3,727
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4013
    Likes (Received)
    1868

    Default

    You're making those mill-turn shaped machines on this right?

    Production means what to you? making 30 sets of parts for your initial run, selling a few dozen more a year thereafter and prototyping new parts?

    Did you have something else in mind also that was "production"?

    My suggestion is to buy used and buy more than one machine.

    One machine for primary "production" and one for prototyping new parts and when you need to run 2 at a time.

    If you want to get your business off the ground and run parts without spending a fortune (Time and money)on labor you will probably find standing in front of a VMC running one part at a time is a huge SUCK of your time and you can't actually be productive at anything else while you are doing it. If you have two machines you can be more than twice as productive IME.

    1500 IPM rapids and 20K spindles won't make your parts faster. Fast to make setups, parts that don't need babysat and run times that allow multitasking will make your parts the fastest.

    Your up front income from your kickstarter thing will be gone in a heartbeat. I'd spend $50k on a couple complimentary VMC's and use the rest to get you through the next 6 months of teething.

  28. Likes mkd, BugRobotics, YdnaD, BSCustoms, aarongough and 1 others liked this post
  29. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    991
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    672
    Likes (Received)
    436

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post

    My suggestion is to buy used and buy more than one machine.

    One machine for primary "production" and one for prototyping new parts and when you need to run 2 at a time.

    If you have two machines you can be more than twice as productive IME.

    1500 IPM rapids and 20K spindles won't make your parts faster.
    ^^^^^This times 1000^^^^^
    You can't un-spend the money, so spend as little as possible...which means used.
    I got a 600mm hori at auction a while back. The bid price was super cheap for a mostly fully functional mill. But all the associated costs of (inflated) shipping and auctioneer premiums really brought the total up. Good thing i low balled them.

  30. Likes BugRobotics liked this post

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
2