New Machine Day- Speedio 700 with 4th and 16k Garage shop setup + a few issues

gt40 · Jan 31, 2021

Howdy- I have been a member of Practical Machinist since 2010. While I have built a half dozen machines including a 40 taper 10hp epoxy granite cnc mill and an 13x40 jet lathe CNC conversion, this is my first "new" machine. I am on Bainbridge Island and it has been interesting. My shop has 200 amp 240 1 phase So I went with a RPC plus transformers on the advice of Peter- the Yamazen Tech. The machine works but I am getting some issues. Stopping the spindle from 16k to zero is causing a regenerative overload error 50 percent of the the time and once in a while from 14k. I went from 10 gauge to 6 gauge main power cord on request of Yamazen but it didn't make any change. FYI, Voltage is 208, 213, 209 leg to leg with the transformers and 107, 203, 108 volts leg to ground. RPC is 25hp and is within Volts variance leg to leg also. At this point not sure what to do. Wondering if something like a line/load reactor may be of help? Any suggestions would be really appreciated!

Here are a few pics from the install:

Any suggestions would be really appreciated!

Mark

gt40 · Jan 31, 2021

First parts have been basic stuff for the machine- 1.5" thick offset riser to move the 4th off the table and an adapter plate for the 8" Rohm chuck.
I am still getting used to the Brother control,but the machine kicks ass. I am really happy about the tool setter mount, tucked in behind the rotary...

ripperj · Feb 1, 2021

Can you lengthen the de-acceleration time?
Nice machine!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

BROTHERFRANK · Feb 1, 2021

Looking good. Congratulations!

Mike1974 · Feb 1, 2021

gt40 said:
First parts have been basic stuff for the machine- 1.5" thick offset riser to move the 4th off the table and an adapter plate for the 8" Rohm chuck.
I am still getting used to the Brother control,but the machine kicks ass. I am really happy about the tool setter mount, tucked in behind the rotary...

View attachment 312346 View attachment 312347 View attachment 312350

6 jaw German made chuck? Someone is high falutin! LOL. J/K, looks great!

BT Fabrication · Feb 1, 2021

ya i could see that happening, they are trying to send the power of stopping back through the RPC to the grid.
you almost need a secondary load on it to take the surge in power in the lines.
a bigger or second RPC motor/ or even a transformer setup could help take the large inductive spike out.
id bet on an oscilloscope you would see a massive voltage spike.

lastrada · Feb 1, 2021

gt40 said:
Here are a few pics from the install:

Mark

What is your garage door height? I'm starting to research a garage install and trying to get an idea of clearances for a brother.

D.D.Machine · Feb 1, 2021

Yamazen has been selling a lot of these to small shops with RPC`s and there has been a "LOT" of guys on here that had power problems with there brother mills,, one would think that brothers would have fixed there machines ,, What ever you do don`t sign off on the machine tell Yamazen gets it running right.

If I was in your shoes I would tell Yamazen to get someone over there to fix it and there not leaving tell the machine is running or there taking the machine with them . In the last 5 years I have had 3 new machines that had problems from day one and in all three cases the dealer could not fix there product and had to buy the machines back ,,, its a pain in the butt to have to deal with but its better than being stuck looking at a machine that you can`t use. Yamazen has a VARY good reputation for good customer service but I would still give them a fix it or remove it date in writing ,,,

Finegrain · Feb 1, 2021

Might try bucking down to like 225V instead of all the way down to 208V.

I had overvoltage issues when my 16k Speedio was first installed. PhasePerfect with no voltage adjustment so nominally 240V. Some days the grid was at 245, other days it was 235. On the 245 days the machine would throw an overvoltage alarm on spindle start or stop, at full speed. Apparently the PhasePerfect was losing some leg-to-leg balance with the spindle start and stop surges. I bucked it down to 208 and have been running like that for 4 years, with zillions of full-speed start and stops.

I'm no expert in RPC's, but I suspect some have greater surge capacity than others. Maybe OP's RPC is going unbalanced with the surges. They are quite large surges for sure. I can hear my PhasePerfect's tone change when the spindle starts and stops.

Do you have access to a recording voltmeter that can show you transient leg-to-leg voltages?

BTW, I would be leery of reducing the spindle accel/decel. The tool change is so fast, if you mess with the accel/decel, you might cause problems with the spindle needing to be at 0 when it hits the toolchange mechanism.

Regards.

Mike

Pete Deal · Feb 1, 2021

Your setup is very similar to mine and I've had no issues. What kind of transformer are you using?

My setup is S1000 w/16k, 30hp Am Rotary Phase Conv, 15kva 3 phase Am Rotary step down transformer. 10 ga wire, 30 a breaker. I do have a little 3phase sub panel off my rpc for what it's worth.

My transformer is a true 3 phase auto transformer. Is yours open delta?

gkoenig · Feb 1, 2021

D.D.Machine said:
Yamazen has been selling a lot of these to small shops with RPC`s and there has been a "LOT" of guys on here that had power problems with there brother mills,, one would think that brothers would have fixed there machines ,, What ever you do don`t sign off on the machine tell Yamazen gets it running right.

If I was in your shoes I would tell Yamazen to get someone over there to fix it and there not leaving tell the machine is running or there taking the machine with them . In the last 5 years I have had 3 new machines that had problems from day one and in all three cases the dealer could not fix there product and had to buy the machines back ,,, its a pain in the butt to have to deal with but its better than being stuck looking at a machine that you can`t use. Yamazen has a VARY good reputation for good customer service but I would still give them a fix it or remove it date in writing ,,,

Yamazen is not the power grid. It sucks for people with funky power situations to be in this position, but it is on the shop to provide in-spec, clean, 3 phase power. Yamazen helps folks out WAY beyond their mandate, and they are up against some very fussy regulations about who can and can’t touch electricity gear.

Rick Finsta · Feb 1, 2021

First thing I'd do is put on oscilloscope on the three legs and record during spindle accel/decel to make sure I was seeing a spike. After confirmation, I'd try a three phase auto-transformer to try and absorb some of the spike. In DC systems I've used capacitor ground shunts to absorb high frequency flyback voltage spikes; I am not sure if this is something that can be done in an AC system but it isn't something I'd try to DIY.

Best of luck getting it sorted - beautiful machine!

D.D.Machine · Feb 1, 2021

I think its fair to say Yamazen is the largest seller of Brothers machines in the US were power is 240V and not 200V like japan and do to that fact Yamazen should know how to get there machines to run reliably on 240V or at the vary least know what needs to be done to make there machines run reliably on it ,,, The OP is one substation away from my shop and I have worked for shops in the past running off the same substation as he is on .. I might be wrong but I would think Yamazen could and should tell there customers upfront that "this is what you well need to run a brothers mill" on 240V single phase.

I have been in the OP`s shoes in the past were a machine was new and not working right and its not a good place to be. Bottom line is the dealer sold a machine knowing that the buyer had 240V single phase and still sold him a machine ,,

2outof3 · Feb 1, 2021

D.D.Machine said:
Yamazen has been selling a lot of these to small shops with RPC`s and there has been a "LOT" of guys on here that had power problems with there brother mills,, one would think that brothers would have fixed there machines ,, What ever you do don`t sign off on the machine tell Yamazen gets it running right.

If I was in your shoes I would tell Yamazen to get someone over there to fix it and there not leaving tell the machine is running or there taking the machine with them . In the last 5 years I have had 3 new machines that had problems from day one and in all three cases the dealer could not fix there product and had to buy the machines back ,,, its a pain in the butt to have to deal with but its better than being stuck looking at a machine that you can`t use. Yamazen has a VARY good reputation for good customer service but I would still give them a fix it or remove it date in writing ,,,

I am pretty sure everyone who had issues with power on the Brothers for their garage installation resolved the problems with changes to the incoming power supply and none had anything to do with the machine side.

gt40 · Feb 1, 2021

lastrada wrote:

lastrada said:
What is your garage door height? I'm starting to research a garage install and trying to get an idea of clearances for a brother.

My garage door is 81". I had to take the z servo off but you can squeeze down to 80" if you do that. The Yamazen tech provided really detailed instructions with a pick and it is no big deal- remove about 8 screws and a coupling nut set screw.

Pete Deal wrote:

Your setup is very similar to mine and I've had no issues. What kind of transformer are you using?

My setup is S1000 w/16k, 30hp Am Rotary Phase Conv, 15kva 3 phase Am Rotary step down transformer. 10 ga wire, 30 a breaker. I do have a little 3phase sub panel off my rpc for what it's worth.

My transformer is a true 3 phase auto transformer. Is yours open delta?

I put in 2 Jefferson Electric buck-boost transformer, encapsulated core, 1.5 kVA, 1-phase, 120/240 VAC primary, 16/32 VAC secondary. They are not auto transformers

ya i could see that happening, they are trying to send the power of stopping back through the RPC to the grid.
you almost need a secondary load on it to take the surge in power in the lines.
a bigger or second RPC motor/ or even a transformer setup could help take the large inductive spike out.
id bet on an oscilloscope you would see a massive voltage spike.

The Yamazen tech mentioned something along the same lines. I am going to try a 3rd transformer on the hot leg and also looking at tweaking the post to drop to an lower rpm before stopping. The tech will be out on Wed and hopefully we will make some progress.

Anyone have any knowledge of line/load reactors?

Pete Deal · Feb 1, 2021

gt40 said:
lastrada wrote:

I put in 2 Jefferson Electric buck-boost transformer, encapsulated core, 1.5 kVA, 1-phase, 120/240 VAC primary, 16/32 VAC secondary. They are not auto transformers

Sounds like open delta. Your transformer specs don't add up. 1.5kva??? 16/32vac sec??? The machine is like 10kva. I used a 15kva american rotary xformer. Pretty nice about $900 on ebay.

I think it was this one:
15 kVA 240D/208D Volt Primary to 208D/240D Volt Secondary 3 Phase Transformer | eBay

I'm no expert but I avoided an open delta transformer configuration for this reason. I like the idea of the inductance of a transformer on all legs between the machine and the line.

gkoenig · Feb 1, 2021

D.D.Machine said:
I think its fair to say Yamazen is the largest seller of Brothers machines in the US were power is 240V and not 200V like japan and do to that fact Yamazen should know how to get there machines to run reliably on 240V or at the vary least know what needs to be done to make there machines run reliably on it.

Again, Yamazen is not a power company. There is a clear line of demarkation of responsibility, and it is the terminal block on the back of the control for input power. Yamazen has been *very* helpful for customers who need to convert 3 phase power and is happy to tell new customers what the most successful setups have been for their previous customers, and they stay up-to-date with the details (like Phase Perfect's unannounced hardware changes and getting around them, or proper methods for bucking down from 240v for American Rotary products). Yamazen is not in the business of landing machines on people's floors not-working, and they assist as much as they can - but everyone is upfront that it is on the customer to give the machine in-spec power.

I have been in the OP`s shoes in the past were a machine was new and not working right and its not a good place to be. Bottom line is the dealer sold a machine knowing that the buyer had 240V single phase and still sold him a machine ,,

You're in the position of having returned more machines to MTBs than anyone else I know, a fact you bring up repeatedly... Yet you conveniently forget that one of those MTBs you threw under the bus on here actually dropped in to note that a mill they pulled from your shop went right into another facility (without any modifications or repairs) and has been wood burning stove reliable once it left your place.

Dude, the through-line on this is very obvious - you're in a funky remote Puget Sound location and you've got dirty ass power coming in from the utility. Call an electrician and clean those jank magic pixies up with transformers, converters, or whatever other black electrician magic is necessary, but stop throwing MTBs under the bus for stuff that is simply not their mandate.

Garwood · Feb 1, 2021

Having dealt with RPC's running CNC's for 15 years now This is how I do it:

240 single phase goes into big RPC. 3 phase goes around the shop to all the machines. Each CNC has it's own 240Delta to 208Wye or 480Wye transformer appropriately sized for the machine. The transformers are wired AFTER the machine's switch. That way they aren't a load on the RPC when you start it.

1.5KVA sounds way too small. I think my smallest transformer is 20KVA.

eaglemike · Feb 1, 2021

D.D.Machine said:
Yamazen has been selling a lot of these to small shops with RPC`s and there has been a "LOT" of guys on here that had power problems with there brother mills,, one would think that brothers would have fixed there machines ,, What ever you do don`t sign off on the machine tell Yamazen gets it running right.

If I was in your shoes I would tell Yamazen to get someone over there to fix it and there not leaving tell the machine is running or there taking the machine with them . In the last 5 years I have had 3 new machines that had problems from day one and in all three cases the dealer could not fix there product and had to buy the machines back ,,, its a pain in the butt to have to deal with but its better than being stuck looking at a machine that you can`t use. Yamazen has a VARY good reputation for good customer service but I would still give them a fix it or remove it date in writing ,,,

A LOT of guys? Please provide links, as I must have missed them.

eaglemike · Feb 1, 2021

gkoenig said:
Again, Yamazen is not a power company. There is a clear line of demarkation of responsibility, and it is the terminal block on the back of the control for input power. Yamazen has been *very* helpful for customers who need to convert 3 phase power and is happy to tell new customers what the most successful setups have been for their previous customers, and they stay up-to-date with the details (like Phase Perfect's unannounced hardware changes and getting around them, or proper methods for bucking down from 240v for American Rotary products). Yamazen is not in the business of landing machines on people's floors not-working, and they assist as much as they can - but everyone is upfront that it is on the customer to give the machine in-spec power.

You're in the position of having returned more machines to MTBs than anyone else I know, a fact you bring up repeatedly... Yet you conveniently forget that one of those MTBs you threw under the bus on here actually dropped in to note that a mill they pulled from your shop went right into another facility (without any modifications or repairs) and has been wood burning stove reliable once it left your place.

Dude, the through-line on this is very obvious - you're in a funky remote Puget Sound location and you've got dirty ass power coming in from the utility. Call an electrician and clean those jank magic pixies up with transformers, converters, or whatever other black electrician magic is necessary, but stop throwing MTBs under the bus for stuff that is simply not their mandate.

That's also a reason prices can vary. if someone is remote, with power issues, it's going to cost more to set up and service machines.
I've had zero issues with Yamazen or Brother, in fact they have several times gone beyond normal to support me. My goal is always to do everything I can to make the relationship good for them too, and I think they appreciate that. They took the time to stay in touch when I was dealing with cancer/chemo throughout 2018,and that meant a lot to me. I wish every machine tool builder/seller would work like those guys. I'm fortunate that I'm in SoCal - that makes things easier for BrotherFrank and Andy.

New Machine Day- Speedio 700 with 4th and 16k Garage shop setup + a few issues

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