New Machine Day- Speedio 700 with 4th and 16k Garage shop setup + a few issues - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Deal View Post
    Sounds like open delta. Your transformer specs don't add up. 1.5kva??? 16/32vac sec??? The machine is like 10kva. I used a 15kva american rotary xformer. Pretty nice about $900 on ebay.

    I think it was this one:
    15 kVA 240D/208D Volt Primary to 208D/240D Volt Secondary 3 Phase Transformer | eBay

    I'm no expert but I avoided an open delta transformer configuration for this reason. I like the idea of the inductance of a transformer on all legs between the machine and the line.
    That method is the ideal way to do it. However, the way he's got it, if the transformers are after the RPC, it can handle a little above 19 kVA with those transformers. It doesn't make sense I know, but that's how it works out. You can play around with it here: HPS Buck Boost Calculator

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    I have a 10K high torque, running a similar setup with no issues. That said, I have two RPCs, so maybe they are soaking up the dumped voltages better. I also don't know what your setup as a whole looks like.

    I modified the Speedio Fusion post to drop the RPM down to 8K before stopping the spindle for a tool change or at the end of a job. (this only happens if the spindle was already above 8K) I picked 8k to handle situations like a heavier face mill, etc. It's simple enough but I tested it on my machine and it works fine. The spindle speed changes so fast on these you'll probably barely notice.

    Let me know if you'd like to try it.

    Forgot to mention. I have those same transformers and have them setup to drop the voltage to 218 instead of 208. Not sure it would matter, but it might. I wanted mine as close to 220 as possible as that helps lower the current draw.

  3. #23
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    The buck/boost (versus autotransformer) configuration means that the transformer is only handling a fraction of the total current. So 1.5kVA is about right for a 10hp machine if you're just bucking the voltage down somewhat.

    That said, the coils aren't isolated like on an autotransformer configuration so the best way to do this on a machine dumping a big voltage spike is to set up a true three phase autotransformer that will handle the full current load. They are not cheap, though.

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    When I got my speedio last summer I was setting it up and doing misc testing. I wrote a spindle warm up program that at the end goes from 16k to zero. I had my old brother powered up too at that point. I kept getting over voltages on the old machine when the speedio stopped. I also lost a y axis servo amp at the same time. In the old machine. I didn’t have a step down transformer transformer on the old machine at the time. Do now and no issues.

    It’s been 6 months since I looked at the speedio conrols. Pretty sure the servo amps run off the line voltage you give the machine. I know my old one is this way. The multi tap transformer in the machine only powers the controls. I think closer 200v is best.

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMM View Post
    I have a 10K high torque, running a similar setup with no issues. That said, I have two RPCs, so maybe they are soaking up the dumped voltages better. I also don't know what your setup as a whole looks like.

    I modified the Speedio Fusion post to drop the RPM down to 8K before stopping the spindle for a tool change or at the end of a job. (this only happens if the spindle was already above 8K) I picked 8k to handle situations like a heavier face mill, etc. It's simple enough but I tested it on my machine and it works fine. The spindle speed changes so fast on these you'll probably barely notice.

    Let me know if you'd like to try it.

    Forgot to mention. I have those same transformers and have them setup to drop the voltage to 218 instead of 208. Not sure it would matter, but it might. I wanted mine as close to 220 as possible as that helps lower the current draw.
    I will definitely try rewiring the transformers to 218v. Also interested in the tweaked post.

    Rick Finsta wrote:
    The buck/boost (versus autotransformer) configuration means that the transformer is only handling a fraction of the total current. So 1.5kVA is about right for a 10hp machine if you're just bucking the voltage down somewhat.

    That said, the coils aren't isolated like on an auto transformer configuration so the best way to do this on a machine dumping a big voltage spike is to set up a true three phase autotransformer that will handle the full current load. They are not cheap, though
    That is what my electrician advised me before going on a fishing trip. I also tried a Larson 1-Phase Buck/Boost Step-Down Transformer - 240V Primary - 208V Secondary -53.1 Amps before the RPC but the spread between legs was greater.

    Mark

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    FWIW, This has worked well for me the last 2 years, 10K speedio S500no issues.. American rotary 20HP/ Larsen MT-BBT-240D-3P-53.1

    power_s500.jpg

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    Congrats on the machine! This is good info. I'm hoping I can buy a Speedio this year and the power is one thing I'm curious about. Right now I'm running a Fadal on a 15hp RPC, but the voltages are on the higher side (240+), but it's been a few years with no issues. I'd like to have as little downtime as possible when I can make the Speedio work so it's great seeing what everyone is using.

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    Quick update, power issues are fixed- a local engineer Elden who is on this forum came up with a simple solution that consist of a bunch of zener diodes, a fast solid state relay and a big resister in the form of a heater coil. When the voltage gets above the threshold set by the zener diodes, it activates the solid state relay and the excess is absorbed by the resister. Made over a dozen stops from 16k rapid fire style and the machine is happy. You can actually hear a difference stopping from before when I got the error code. When the Speedio spindle stops, it tries to return power back to the grid and my RPC was in the way of that is how the tech described it.

    I will post up the circuit and some pics in the hope it may be of help to anyone trying to run these amazing machines in a home shop/RPC power environment after we put in a proper box with a thermal fuse. Bottom line, I am able to make parts so all is good. First real part on the machine is a triple for GSXR front ends with an integrated Motogadget smart display. These Speedios are soooo fast!

    20210220_172332.jpgresized_20210220_172512.jpg

    I would also like to shout out the great support I got from my sales engineer Peter- he made the 4 hour drive to my shop multiple times during all of this and patiently did a great job with setup, trouble shooting and with lots of post sale operation questions and training. Anyone in the pacific northwest would be lucky to have his help.
    Last edited by gt40; 02-23-2021 at 09:25 AM.

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    Nice looking triple!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    I am pretty sure everyone who had issues with power on the Brothers for their garage installation resolved the problems with changes to the incoming power supply and none had anything to do with the machine side.
    Isn't the installation manual quite clear that the requirement is three-phase power at 200-230V?

    I run a 20hp PhasePerfect with the single-phase side bucked down to 218V and it works very well. Sometimes I get a regen alarm if I am running in dry mode and in a section with a ton of short, fast motion, the spindle at 16K, and rapid-fire tool changes. Easy enough to work around that.

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  13. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by trochoidalpath View Post
    Isn't the installation manual quite clear that the requirement is three-phase power at 200-230V?

    I run a 20hp PhasePerfect with the single-phase side bucked down to 218V and it works very well. Sometimes I get a regen alarm if I am running in dry mode and in a section with a ton of short, fast motion, the spindle at 16K, and rapid-fire tool changes. Easy enough to work around that.
    Here is a pic of my machine on a scope with a successful 16k stop. The yellow line is current and the blue is voltage. Running without a load at 16k, the machine is drawing 9.8amp. Upon stopping, it goes to over 50 amps! voltage goes from 205v to 250v at the same time. According to the tech that made the circuit for me, RPC and Phase perfect may be happier because it avoids a big spike being sent to them by providing a means to dump it into the resister instead of max load to the RPC/phaseperfect.

    brother-scope-pic.jpg

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