New Machine Day: Tsugami M08SY

New Machine Day... my first new machine, not just new to me.









Electrician on Monday or Tuesday and install shortly thereafter. FANUC is being FANUC about some options and evidently were convinced we did stuff regulated under ITAR and wanted a bunch of extra paperwork before they would install the stuff we paid for? Not even the F-word can keep a smile off my face today. We also did a shop cleanup day that was 30 years in the making. The last new machine to hit this shop floor was in 1997. This will be the first machine at this shop programmed with CAD/CAM. Seriously. We're all super excited to be turning this particular page.

This machine is getting a turn key and run-off for the owners' other business venture after which I'm commandeering it and running parts 24/7 and making him get in line. That LNS Hydrofeed is going to be replaced with a magazine feeder in short order. Morris Midwest has been fantastic throughout this process, and I'm looking at a 20mm Swiss to stick next to this guy. I just have to look through the numbers for the really small parts and figure out if we can move hobbing over from the manual machine to a Swiss. I think we've got some gear assemblies that could be done in one operation on modern equipment. If the customers aren't on board I think it is time to move on and take some of the work I've been turning down.

BTW machine has a door lock so we can't open it without power. That was also a new thing for the shop guys.

Next thread will be a pair of Brothers in a few weeks to replace a pair of Mori MV-40s that were installed before the internet existed.

Congratulations!

Hopefully it has a dual path control or at least a really good integration of a single path control. Old Tsugamis were notorious for using a single path control on sub-spindle machines to cut costs. The trade off was excruciatingly painful operation of the sub-spindle while proving out new programs. The spindle axis was handled as a PMC axis. Things like single block and over rides were largely ignored when running the sub-spindle operations.

Someone (might have been you?) pointed that out while I was shopping and I did confirm it has dual path.

Is this a typical turning center, or Swiss-type?

More pics when you get it going for sure!

cnctoolcat said:

Is this a typical turning center, or Swiss-type?

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I believe it is a fixed headstock machine.

Rick Finsta said:

and I'm looking at a 20mm Swiss to stick next to this guy.

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Nerdlinger said:

I believe it is a fixed headstock machine.

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Doo they make fixed headstocks?

I know that they have some B axis machines that have a whole tool chain feeding live tool spindle(s), but I don't recall if that was Swiss or not? I haven't really stopped by their booth since Guru left.

Rick Finsta said:

FANUC is being FANUC about some options and evidently were convinced we did stuff regulated under ITAR and wanted a bunch of extra paperwork before they would install the stuff we paid for?

..... I just have to look through the numbers for the really small parts and figure out if we can move hobbing over from the manual machine to a Swiss. I think we've got some gear assemblies that could be done in one operation on modern equipment. If the customers aren't on board I think it is time to move on and take some of the work I've been turning down.


BTW machine has a door lock so we can't open it without power. That was also a new thing for the shop guys.

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Not overly familiar with ITAR, but how would that be an issue for machine option compliance?


How is the customer related to how you produce their parts?


Single path lathes falling out of cycle when they see the door open works well IMO, but once you git to dual path, you really don't have a good time to pop the door so much.

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

It's a fixed headstock. We have it set up with three-jaw chucks but we can run a collet chuck if we want to.

As for ITAR compliance, you got me. It sounds to me like they (FANUC) Googled the company name and decided we did ITAR stuff. They have some special paperwork that needs to go back to the home office in Japan before they will install any options on a machine depending on what the manufacturer does, I guess? The poor lady at the MTB said they come up with odd stuff like this all the time, and usually on Friday afternoons.

As for the customers, we've got a few thousand legacy parts that go into assemblies, where there was clearly no design for manufacture. For instance; we've got a shaft and pressed-on wingnut assembly, where the shaft is knurled and then the wingnut is reamed to a press fit, instead of turning down the shaft and knurling to fit the wingnuts. I don't like asking someone to sit down and ream a few thousand wingnuts, nor do I like paying for it, so if we can't get some of that stuff changed so things can come off a machine ready to assemble with no secondary operations... as I said, I'm turning down other work that will pay much better.

We will also have to up our shop rate for a lot of these legacy parts. The old owners let this play decay nearly past salvation, and the shop rate is not enough to support reinvestment and expansion, it was one of those "well, the machines are payed for and we own the building..." type rates that never really went up over several decades. I can cut lead times and such with a Swiss for a lot of parts, but I don't think I can do it at the rate they were charging.

I won't have time to pour through the numbers until July I'm thinking.

I'm being told right now this is a single path control and the literature seems to point at that as well. I wonder if they are shipping these with different controls or if you were given false information?

Maybe I misunderstood the applications engineer, then, because I was made to understand that the "Spindle Synchronous Control" was analogous to "Dual Path." Personally I thought it was just having a full C-axis and said so. Was I right? Regardless, FANUC does list the 0i-TF as having dual-path synchronization in all the literature I can find. I get that doesn't mean the MTB paid to have it turned on, though.

As far as I know there is only one control; you can't even get the Abile overlay or other stuff available on the swiss-turns.

I haven't signed the acceptance papers yet, the install is scheduled for Wed/Thurs.

BTW do keep in mind that mine is a -II model. The older ones (up to last year) had a built-in coolant tank and a 0i-TD controller, among a few other things.

EDIT: Okay, looks like there is a Type 3 or Type 5 0i-TF that does not have dual path. I will check the options list and it appears that if 1000 tool management function was available, that makes this a Type 1 and therefore dual path. I do know that FANUC says that Manual Guide i was available (hell, they let me buy it and are scheduling an install), but they say it is only available on 10.4" screens, and this has an 8.4". Tsugami doesn't offer TURN-MATE i, however, which should be available on any 0i-TF with the same screen size. Go figure.

FANUC's nomenclature and options make it very difficult to be an informed consumer.

Vancbiker said:

Hopefully it has a dual path control or at least a really good integration of a single path control. Old Tsugamis were notorious for using a single path control on sub-spindle machines to cut costs. The trade off was excruciatingly painful operation of the sub-spindle while proving out new programs. The spindle axis was handled as a PMC axis. Things like single block and over rides were largely ignored when running the sub-spindle operations.

Click to expand...

Rick Finsta said:

Someone (might have been you?) pointed that out while I was shopping and I did confirm it has dual path.

Click to expand...

I'm confused. Why would you need dual path on a single turret machine?

Rick Finsta said:

Maybe I misunderstood the applications engineer, then, because I was made to understand that the "Spindle Synchronous Control" was analogous to "Dual Path." Personally I thought it was just having a full C-axis and said so. Was I right? Regardless, FANUC does list the 0i-TF as having dual-path synchronization in all the literature I can find. I get that doesn't mean the MTB paid to have it turned on, though.

Click to expand...

"Spindle Synchronous Control" means that the main and sub can sync rotation. There are two modes, speed and phase. Speed is self explanatory, phase is that plus matched orientation.

Rick Finsta said:

As for ITAR compliance, you got me. It sounds to me like they (FANUC) Googled the company name and decided we did ITAR stuff. They have some special paperwork that needs to go back to the home office in Japan before they will install any options on a machine depending on what the manufacturer does, I guess? The poor lady at the MTB said they come up with odd stuff like this all the time, and usually on Friday afternoons.

Click to expand...

I just took delivery on a new 3 axis VMC last week, had to fill out forms for Fanuc just to have the extended memory installed. New 4 axis VMC last year, nothing to fill out(Same MTB and both machines have Fanuc controls).

I think they are asking anyone who orders a new machine with options to fill out what is called an "Production of Arms Questionaire".

gregormarwick said:

I'm confused. Why would you need dual path on a single turret machine?

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I have no frame of reference other than being told here that it may make for problems running a sub spindle. Honestly, I'm going to do the vast majority of program proving on the computer so maybe it doesn't matter? It's a turn key installation so if it will cut that part, it'll probably do everything else I need it to.

gregormarwick said:

"Spindle Synchronous Control" means that the main and sub can sync rotation. There are two modes, speed and phase. Speed is self explanatory, phase is that plus matched orientation.

Click to expand...

So for parts pick-off at speed and such?

No....

1 turret = 1 path.

I don't even know what you would ever doo with a 2nd path if it only has one turret.


edit:

Unless the sub has it's own X axis and a back-werking tool gang to work on by it'self.... like a swiss may have.



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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

gregormarwick said:

I'm confused. Why would you need dual path on a single turret machine?

Click to expand...

When I posed the question I was not aware of the machine configuration. The Tsugamis that I had experience with were dual spindle swiss type with gang tools for the main and sub.

Rick Finsta said:

So for parts pick-off at speed and such?

Click to expand...

For transfers between main and sub. Speed sync is for parting off while the part is held in the sub. Phase sync is basically the same thing but maintains angular orientation if you have milled features on both ends of the part.

Vancbiker said:

When I posed the question I was not aware of the machine configuration. The Tsugamis that I had experience with were dual spindle swiss type with gang tools for the main and sub.

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Ah, that makes more sense!

Well the control is a A02B-0338-B500 if anyone wants to figure out the Type, but is it safe to say that I got what I need? LOL

BTW, electrician just left. He needs to come back tomorrow with bigger stuff. They want 83A to the machine... Biggest problem is going to be transformer inrush current but no way this thing is going to draw like that. Sure would be nice if they built these to take 240V. Funny enough I bet I could run this sucker off the Phase Perfect in my home shop.

"240"

83A @ ?


Every Fanuc that I have here is on 240.


Just knowing the control model number doesn't really tell the tale.
Dual Path is just a parameter change. (BTDT)






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Think Snow Eh!
Ox