New Machine(s) Day! Brother S700X2 and Hardinge GT-27SP - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwnFinn View Post
    Are you using a live center on the tailstock or something else? For my parts a pneumatic live center would be perfect. Did you make yours from scratch or start with something and modified it?

    Do you know if it is possible you use Hainbuch collets on this? We use BZI 52 size on our lathe, it would be nice to be able to use the same ones. The catalog for the T200A doesn't seem to be available on the brother site (btw what a joke to try to download info on the website). And since I don't speak the same language here with the dealer here it makes it challenging to find out.
    We typically use the Nikken PBA or Yukiwa TPA/TPB pneumatic tailstocks. I think Koma has nice ones as well. They all offer them in various center heights. The Brother T200 doesn't have any collet adapters available from Brother. You will need to adapt one to it's spindle. We have several nice aftermarket set ups we can offer here. Congrats on getting your new machine installed and up and running Protohawk. I am sure it is fun to run it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Deal View Post
    Looks like on th s700 you could move the 4th off the edge of the table quite a bit since it has such a long fixed way cover there. Would gain quite a bit of table space. Same on my tc-s2d-o. Not so on the S1000. The table goes very close to the enclosure on that.
    I just did this for a T200A on my S500X1.

    You have a lot of clearance around the left side of the table on a S500/S700: 35mm off the back edge, 154mm off the front, and either 199mm (S500) or 244mm (S700) off the left edge. (You have less space on the right side.) Might be different on the X2.

    Now to get the rotary installed....
    img_1094.jpg
    img_1097.jpg

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwnFinn View Post
    Are you using a live center on the tailstock or something else? For my parts a pneumatic live center would be perfect. Did you make yours from scratch or start with something and modified it?

    Do you know if it is possible you use Hainbuch collets on this? We use BZI 52 size on our lathe, it would be nice to be able to use the same ones. The catalog for the T200A doesn't seem to be available on the brother site (btw what a joke to try to download info on the website). And since I don't speak the same language here with the dealer here it makes it challenging to find out.
    Here is the 2nd to last physical version of my 4th axis tailstock. This is the 3rd machine it has been adapted to and all of them have had enough extra table that I can mount it so I don't lose any travel. I could make it a bit shorter if I didn't have as much extra table to work with. It uses a 1/2" drill rod with a 60-degree angle ground on one end and a 1/4" ceramic ball for the bearing end so it can rotate with the fixture, stuff I had on hand to design around. The pneumatic plunger will apply 360 lbs at 60 psi which is the max for my current 4th. The T-200 is good for 1124 lbs of tailstock push so the plunger could be a lot bigger. There is a slide valve on the end to activate it making it fast and handy. Even at 360 lbs I have never had any problems with making my parts, even hogging with a 2-1/2" facemill towards the tailstock. This has seen around 10 revisions over the last 20 years with the main body being the only original part so if I were to make a new one from scratch it would look a lot different, in fact the current version has big radiuses on all the edges making it look much better. Being aluminum it changes in height about .0001" per degree but since all of my fixtures are aluminum too I have to control temps anyway. It's dead nuts in height at 64f, I left some room for wear, and within .0002" in Y. As I said previously I have never found a 4th axis tailstock that is even close to working for the intended job, they are all way too big eating up way too much X-axis travel. Maybe they are fine for a 20"x 40" machine but not these small drill/tap mills.

    Both the earlier and current versions of the T-200 catalogs are available on Brother's website here. Once you fill in your details they are easy enough to download, is it that different in Canada?


    ts1.jpg4th-2.jpgv3.jpgv2.jpg Here is a vise I made to show what the ends of my fixtures look like to hold between the 4th and tailstock.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by trochoidalpath View Post
    I just did this for a T200A on my S500X1.

    You have a lot of clearance around the left side of the table on a S500/S700: 35mm off the back edge, 154mm off the front, and either 199mm (S500) or 244mm (S700) off the left edge. (You have less space on the right side.) Might be different on the X2.

    Now to get the rotary installed....
    img_1094.jpg
    img_1097.jpg
    Fancy Schmancy! Is that ductile iron? How thick?


    This is where I'm headed with mine on my S1000. I haven't ordered it yet but I'm planning on buying the little 6" long Orange vise with the SMW mounting pattern. This way I can have the vise as shown or turned 90 degrees. Also can have another on the back side. The cantilever piece is 4" square ductile iron milled to 2" thick.

    t200-faceplate-assy.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by trochoidalpath View Post
    I just did this for a T200A on my S500X1.

    You have a lot of clearance around the left side of the table on a S500/S700: 35mm off the back edge, 154mm off the front, and either 199mm (S500) or 244mm (S700) off the left edge. (You have less space on the right side.) Might be different on the X2.

    Now to get the rotary installed....
    img_1094.jpg
    img_1097.jpg
    *sigh*

    Okay, how much $$$ for the CAD model?

    Looks great!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROTHERFRANK View Post
    Congrats on getting your new machine installed and up and running Protohawk. I am sure it is fun to run it!
    Thanks! Today I spent a few hours getting the post processor right while the other spindle was running longer cycle time parts. Still a few things I don't like about the code but it'll run without modification, at least. Friday the first production run goes on S700; I'll have to get another vise on there before then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Deal View Post
    Fancy Schmancy! Is that ductile iron? How thick?


    This is where I'm headed with mine on my S1000. I haven't ordered it yet but I'm planning on buying the little 6" long Orange vise with the SMW mounting pattern. This way I can have the vise as shown or turned 90 degrees. Also can have another on the back side. The cantilever piece is 4" square ductile iron milled to 2" thick.

    t200-faceplate-assy.jpg
    4140PH. I was thinking about doing it out of MIC6 but some folks here talked me out of it!

    I had a blank ground to 40mm thickness (I do everything in metric). The iso pockets on the bottom saved 25 lbs or so, but it's still about 45 lbs. Edge deflection on the far side should be very acceptable (assuming I didn't screw up the simulation).

    Kinda thinking I should have put in some mechanism for putting the toolsetter behind the 4th, but oh well. I'll leave it on the back right corner where it is now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    *sigh*

    Okay, how much $$$ for the CAD model?

    Looks great!
    Nothing, just send me a PM.

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    Appreciate it! I'll add something for the toolsetter as well.

    I've got the post processor pretty much squared away. About the only thing I haven't figured out yet is how to turn off the shower coolant when the TSC is on, or how to have it turn on and stay on when the first operation is a probe. I just have to dig through the code and find those sections. Maybe this weekend.

    I haven't given much love to the Hardinge, yet. I got the main disconnect replaced and everything fires up, but I'm getting an oil pump alarm and can't seem to convince the machine to let me jog in the positive direction. I tried reversing two legs to re-phase the machine but the pump sounds horrible and the spindle seems to be turning the wrong direction no matter how I phase it. That has me scratching my head a bit. I will wait for my buddy to pop in and look at it since he's been working on these for decades. I'm also probably going to spring for an LCD upgrade form FANUC. They aren't too expensive, anyways, and this CRT is really dim. I could try adjusting it first, I suppose.

    I also need to pull the tooling plate and throw it across the CMM so I can make a few more.

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    So, the Hardinge needs a new contactor for the lubrication system, that's what was causing problems. The power was phased correctly but evidently I'm an idiot and forgot M3/M4 are from the spindle side not from the tool side. I've got a replacement contactor on the way (thanks eBay) and then should be able to get into the rest of it. My buddy showed me how to home it and such so I just need to pull the tooling plate off and start getting all that reverse engineered and set up for my parts.

    The Brother stuff is going great. Yamazen is fantastic, as always, and the apps support for the probing and tool setting has been great. I got the Lang quickpoint and 125mm vise and got that cut last night. I got lucky... My rougher was cutting low (I must have tweaked an offset and forgot to reset it or it was deflection or something) and I ended up with about a thousandth of clearance between the Lang plate and the face of the T200. Worst case I know I could have made up a shim but I really didn't want to do that! I got the A axis dialed in, though the vise is holding parts 0.003" off center of rotation. I can't remember how close the Makrogrip stuff we had in the Matsuura was where we were actually using transform workplanes and such. Apps support told me to just use different offsets for different faces on fixtures or in vises, and that is what I'm used to on a 4th axis anyways. I've got a slight amount of face runout on the Lang plate so I might have to pull it apart and check to see if I had a chip in there or something.

    My Okuma probing got me within millionths of dead center on the Lang plate:



    Luckily I had a YG-1 Dream drill in a good size to pilot the capscrew holes and then I just opened them up for the M8 clearance. I cut the dowels and register step into the back, and then flipped the part and used he drilled holes to locate the counterbores.



    I forgot to order those little blue counterbore caps from Lang so I'm getting some of those on the way. Yamazen helped me reset the machine zero for the A-axis so it matches my fixture. Now I am just waiting on a tool and I'll be cutting some of my product components this week! I already ran some job shop stuff in the Brother last week and this thing is cutting perfectly.


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  14. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    So, the Hardinge needs a new contactor for the lubrication system, that's what was causing problems. The power was phased correctly but evidently I'm an idiot and forgot M3/M4 are from the spindle side not from the tool side. I've got a replacement contactor on the way (thanks eBay) and then should be able to get into the rest of it. My buddy showed me how to home it and such so I just need to pull the tooling plate off and start getting all that reverse engineered and set up for my parts.

    The Brother stuff is going great. Yamazen is fantastic, as always, and the apps support for the probing and tool setting has been great. I got the Lang quickpoint and 125mm vise and got that cut last night.
    I got lucky... My rougher was cutting low (I must have tweaked an offset and forgot to reset it or it was deflection or something) and I ended up with about a thousandth of clearance between the Lang plate and the face of the T200. Worst case I know I could have made up a shim but I really didn't want to do that! I got the A axis dialed in, though the vise is holding parts 0.003" off center of rotation. I can't remember how close the Makrogrip stuff we had in the Matsuura was where we were actually using transform workplanes and such. Apps support told me to just use different offsets for different faces on fixtures or in vises, and that is what I'm used to on a 4th axis anyways. I've got a slight amount of face runout on the Lang plate so I might have to pull it apart and check to see if I had a chip in there or something.

    My Okuma probing got me within millionths of dead center on the Lang plate:



    Luckily I had a YG-1 Dream drill in a good size to pilot the capscrew holes and then I just opened them up for the M8 clearance. I cut the dowels and register step into the back, and then flipped the part and used he drilled holes to locate the counterbores.



    I forgot to order those little blue counterbore caps from Lang so I'm getting some of those on the way. Yamazen helped me reset the machine zero for the A-axis so it matches my fixture. Now I am just waiting on a tool and I'll be cutting some of my product components this week! I already ran some job shop stuff in the Brother last week and this thing is cutting perfectly.



    I didn't git so lucky yesterday and I hit my table in 4 places while milling out bolt holes.

    It would seem that of all the embedded features, that it would know how far from spindle to table, and never allow it to git within .05 or even .100" from it?



    -------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    My 2006 era Heidenhain does in fact have that feature. Kind of striking that 16 years later the idea hasn't spread throughout the industry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    I didn't git so lucky yesterday and I hit my table in 4 places while milling out bolt holes.

    It would seem that of all the embedded features, that it would know how far from spindle to table, and never allow it to git within .05 or even .100" from it?



    -------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    Ouch! I do know the Brother has exclusion zones you can set up. I've seen that on most newer lathes I've run so it surprise me that it isn't more common. Especially when you've got machines out there with super common setups. I was going to set it up so the machine couldn't hit the 4th with a tool or the spindle. I never take my vises off the table, so I tend to use drops from my torque plate line (8"x2" 6061) to drop in the vise(s) and then cut locating or clamping geometry into them. I learned when I started TIG welding to never throw away a nice chunk of aluminum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    Ouch! I do know the Brother has exclusion zones you can set up. I've seen that on most newer lathes I've run so it surprise me that it isn't more common. Especially when you've got machines out there with super common setups. I was going to set it up so the machine couldn't hit the 4th with a tool or the spindle. I never take my vises off the table, so I tend to use drops from my torque plate line (8"x2" 6061) to drop in the vise(s) and then cut locating or clamping geometry into them. I learned when I started TIG welding to never throw away a nice chunk of aluminum.
    Agree - I'm pretty sure I saw that feature in the control. I've never used it. I have used the RPM limit field for a tool position that we save for the Renishaw. I was just thinking the Speedio has a ton of features like the Fanuc, but it's a little friendlier/less of a mystery for me.

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    That RPM limit could be a life saver. A guy at my last shop started up a spindle to 16000 with a long indexable allied drill in it. It snapped and went right through the sheet metal on a 5 axis. Lucky in a safe direction.

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    Funny enough I'm finding I've been absolutely spoiled by the OSP control. It isn't just because I run it more since I've got plenty of Fanuc and Brother experience (plus two Fanucs in the shop on my turning centers), but it is just a really well thought out interface with a ton of features.

    I should also mention that I never knew about the C00's restart ability. I don't recall if it was on the earlier versions at the old shop, but the apps guy showed me how to use it and the mechanics are similar to how the OSP does a restart/recovery.

    Every time I post code I notice more things I'd like to change. I still don't understand Fusion/HSM's logic on the M298 calls.

    No time today to play around - I've got a stack of torque plates to go out the door (I've been waiting on DOM tubing of all things).

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    Quote Originally Posted by PegroProX440 View Post
    That RPM limit could be a life saver. A guy at my last shop started up a spindle to 16000 with a long indexable allied drill in it. It snapped and went right through the sheet metal on a 5 axis. Lucky in a safe direction.

    The Siemens 810D will start with the last programmed S when starting mid-program, unless you make darn sure to set your start point below the S line for the new tool.
    I have warned of this before as I have had a tool start at maybe 7500 that should have never spun above 2000. I don't remember exactly what the tool was anymore, just that it was vibrating heavily before I could get it to read the proper S line. There was no catastrophic ending this time.


    --------------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    So you are not using Hardinge toolholding for the GT?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GENERALDISARRAY View Post
    So you are not using Hardinge toolholding for the GT?
    I am - I got a bunch of toolholders but only one main plate. The plates are return-to-zero swappable so I'm planning on building a few for some different products I make and *maybe* some light job shop or contract work.

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    Incidentally, I got the Lang quick point plate running within about 0.0002" on the face using some shims, and the vise jaws are now out about 0.0018" at 0deg and 180deg. For a self centering vise I'm sure I'm splitting hairs, here. I should not have issues programming off center of rotation with that small of an error.

    Now to get some stuff programmed for the Brother. The Okuma has been making chips all day and I think little the new machine is starting to get jealous that it wasn't my immediate favorite...


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