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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    I don't know if you only read what applies to you or what, but you didn't start this Thread, so maybe none of it does.

    If you read what I posted, I stated a difference between the Machine Operator and the Office personnel. If my Machinist is painting....that's a problem. If my Machinist is doing install on anything but Tools, that's a problem. If QC sucks ball sac bad enough to pass a Machined part, that's middle tolerance, onto Plating where it gets a .0005" build, because it's type III Hard Anodized, that's a problem. The Machinist doesn't have anything to do with it. That's the Office and unfortunately the Lead/Foreman type. It's QC, it's the production manager, the Owner, the Secretary literally anyone except the Machinist. The tolerances are asinine, but Medical IS worse. I have done both for decades.

    R

    Nailed it, Nothing at all special about the so called "Aerospace" Machinist. From my point of view they are not responsible for post machining ops as Rob said. Sure maybe the part gets a coating but most drawings with specify "Allow +-.XXX for Anodizing/Plating/Painting". If anything "Aerospace" is just the ability to follow instructions.

    For me. I'll take a job shop machinist over an Aero machinist any day. I couldn't count how many interviews I've had with guys from Lockheed, Rockwell, L-3, and so many other places that you hand a part to and say "Can you make me this?" and I just get a dumb look as they ask "where is the print". I always got a kick out of those guys, They come in as the king debutantes of the machinist world wanting the highest pay yet lacked the basic ability to figure a bearing fit.

    So when the OP ask,
    so what kind of things should I expect when programming and machining
    Just machine it to what the instructions say on the print. Anything diverting from the drawings special notes is not your problem. If it says some basic "Allow for plating" without a tolerance then kick it back upstairs. Your company should know what the local finishing companies buildup is so don't be the fall guy for trying to work from a standard. Get everything in writing......

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  3. #22
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    ∆--- very true except you need that when making aerospace parts.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Jesus Christ!!!

    Aerospace parts are still just parts dude.

    If in your background you were a hack, then got surprised because you couldn't be a hack doing Flight parts, I don't know what to tell you. When I started in non Aerospace shop, I still wasn't allowed to "cheat". They were still parts that had to work...WTF are you talking about?


    R

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  6. #24
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    It is just making parts, but don't forget the most important thing. You have to tell everyone you make aerospace parts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    Jesus Christ!!!

    Aerospace parts are still just parts dude.

    If in your background you were a hack, then got surprised because you couldn't be a hack doing Flight parts, I don't know what to tell you. When I started in non Aerospace shop, I still wasn't allowed to "cheat". They were still parts that had to work...WTF are you talking about?


    R
    I think the whole point is, in job shop work (or your own product), yes you need to make good parts. BUT along side that, IME, is you have alot more leeway. Say the apprentice screws up some components for a die / machine / mold that is not critical (maybe a paralell, or box stripper), you very much have a possibility to make it work, either calling the customer (or if it is just to deliver a working die you know what will work and what won't). It's not just black and white - "nope, too deep by .003" so scrap it".

    I'm sure we have all seen the prints that are way over toleranced. I remember making a part where the engineer dimensioned everything to 5 places! It's on me for not asking kind of, but I assumed all those .50000 holes were for dowel pins or a bushing or something so I bored them all to a slip fit on a gage pin. Turns out they were clearance holes for 1/2" shcs.

    And let's forget about prototyping when the engineer is changing things as you are machining the part! LoL

  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by AARONT View Post
    It is just making parts, but don't forget the most important thing. You have to tell everyone you make aerospace parts.
    True true! A couple jobs ago I worked with a guy that was an "aerospace manufacturing engineer". Like he was a step above a lowly manufacturing engineer! haha

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    Definitely agree with the logic that "parts is parts". If you run the type of shop where prints are considered "sacred", and you only make things that you can inspect; then not much is different from a machining standpoint. I bounce between tech, medical, and aerospace, and the only real difference is that the aerospace work tends to have more documentation required.

    Full service aerospace assembly is a whole 'nother animal, and perhaps warrants a separate conversation. If somebody got on here asking about machining gears for Rockwell I wouldn't give them a primer about the difficulties of assembling transmissions.

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    Forgot to add that you are REQUIRED to tell everyone that you are making aerospace parts. Make sure to change your desktop background, screen saver, and profile pictures to images of 787's or F35's. Bonus points if you act weird and ambiguous about the nature of anything you make, leading us to assume that everything is part of the control surface on an F-22 or a cruise missle. Double bonus points if you pretend like working on anything defense related is basically like being trusted to guard national secrets.

    Also, when/if the time comes, make a huge deal about your AS9100 cert. It's not like any other industries require their suppliers to go through cumbersome vetting processes.

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    I actually prefer aerospace parts. The prints are loaded with GD&T which scares most people off, but actually you get more leeway than a traditional +/- callout.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    Forgot to add that you are REQUIRED to tell everyone that you are making aerospace parts. Make sure to change your desktop background, screen saver, and profile pictures to images of 787's or F35's. Bonus points if you act weird and ambiguous about the nature of anything you make, leading us to assume that everything is part of the control surface on an F-22 or a cruise missle. Double bonus points if you pretend like working on anything defense related is basically like being trusted to guard national secrets.

    Also, when/if the time comes, make a huge deal about your AS9100 cert. It's not like any other industries require their suppliers to go through cumbersome vetting processes.

    You probably just summed up every aerospace shop/machinist in existence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Booze Daily View Post
    I actually prefer aerospace parts. The prints are loaded with GD&T which scares most people off, but actually you get more leeway than a traditional +/- callout.
    I don't know about that. I'm pretty sick of seeing .001" true positions on clearance holes for SHCS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Booze Daily View Post
    I actually prefer aerospace parts. The prints are loaded with GD&T which scares most people off, but actually you get more leeway than a traditional +/- callout.
    How do you figure? If you have no modifiers such as MMC / LMC +/-.005 (for example) is better than TP of .01

    True Position Calculator

    If .010 TP, you only get a deviation of .003 in one axis and .004 in the other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    Forgot to add that you are REQUIRED to tell everyone that you are making aerospace parts. Make sure to change your desktop background, screen saver, and profile pictures to images of 787's or F35's. Bonus points if you act weird and ambiguous about the nature of anything you make, leading us to assume that everything is part of the control surface on an F-22 or a cruise missle. Double bonus points if you pretend like working on anything defense related is basically like being trusted to guard national secrets.

    Also, when/if the time comes, make a huge deal about your AS9100 cert. It's not like any other industries require their suppliers to go through cumbersome vetting processes.
    Well crap. I thought all this NIST 800-171 cyber security stuff we just invested heavily to be compliant with so we can still be trusted with C.U.I. was top level security stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rewt View Post
    That's not proper Tool and Die work, that's what we call blacksmithing.
    Sooo you are saying you have never made a mistake?

    Whether it is an honest mistake (misread a number) or an OH SHIT mistake (grabbed a 10-32 instead of 10-24 tap)....

    I've done both. AND it sucks balls when you are 20 hours into that detail. So much better to be able to call customer and say "um, well blah blah' then aerospace and just throw it away because it will be a year to get a deviance signed off on the print /part....

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    Exactly.... exactly why aerospace parts arent "just part"

    Aerospace work is low profit per part work if you are doing it right...doing it wrong you are losing money
    Good thing is there's so much aerospace work in the USA that you can keep busy if you really want to.

    Jobshop...sometimes slow, sometimes fast, most times you make a lot more money with jobshop but there are times you will be slow.

    Thats just my experience though...

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    AS9100D, you are making my point. Besides the chest beating, it's absolutely no different than dealing with any other PITA segment of the industry.

    I have seen deviations bought off on aerospace parts literally hundreds of times. Do you imagine Apple extends their suppliers the same leniency?

    Parts are parts. Sure, aerospace is generally more complex than oil/gas, but there are challenges to be found everywhere.

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    I think as9100d is working with VERY limited experience. That's not an insult BTW, don't flip out. I am a job shop Machinist AND an Aerogay Machinist, and Oil&Gas, and design, they aren't exclusive. And saying that you "can't" make money on low quantity Flight parts is......Flat Earth-ish stupid.

    Come back in 10.

    R

    I prefer GD&T also. It's my opinion there is less room for interpretation, some will argue the opposite, saying that it leaves too much to interpret. But if you actually get some formal (not coffee break) education in a few GD&T classes, it's waaay clearer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    I think as9100d is working with VERY limited experience. That's not an insult BTW, don't flip out. I am a job shop Machinist AND an Aerogay Machinist, and Oil&Gas, and design, they aren't exclusive. And saying that you "can't" make money on low quantity Flight parts is......Flat Earth-ish stupid.

    Come back in 10.

    R

    I prefer GD&T also. It's my opinion there is less room for interpretation, some will argue the opposite, saying that it leaves too much to interpret. But if you actually get some formal (not coffee break) education in a few GD&T classes, it's waaay clearer.

    I am working with very limited experience. My guys arent as skilled as the normal outside jobshop in terms of "outside the box ingenuity in making parts" but where my guys lack in that area they make up for it in following instructions, keeping the ISO auditor happy "we use NQA and they dont just rubber stamp paperwork". I dont need them to think outside the box, I need them to use the materials provided to them, not lie when they make mistakes, and bring mistakes to the attention of their managers because planning, engineering, and every other step makes mistakes that all need to be addressed as a team.

    Biggest point being.... the OP wants to get into aerospace, and if you have to ask on here...you arent ready. Making the part is probably only 10% of the equation. It's not "just another part", it's a part that requires a ton of planning, documentation, engineering, and a little machining.

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  26. #39
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    GD&T when applied properly makes a functional part.

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    Okay, whatever.

    Let me ask a question; When is someone ready?

    BTW, asking real questions about real manufacturing here in Practicalmachinist.com. You are asking the most knowledgable group of Manufacturers on Earth. There is no greater conglomerate of people who eat, drink and sleep Machining then the members here. So saying to someone "if you need to ask here, you're not ready" is really a slap in our faces.

    R

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