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  1. #41
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    When you know the "minimum requirements" and have completed the minimum requirements to become a tier 2 vendor, then and only then are you ready to start making aerospace parts.

    You're telling this poor guy that aerospace parts are the same as any other part when thats simply not true. He's asking whats required to start doing aerospace parts..well tell the guy the truth about whats needed so they stop wasting time thinking about the high dollar aerospace parts thinking they are "just like any other part"

    Tell the guy about as9100d and why its a pain in the ass because really...isnt that where you should start for doing aerospace parts?

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    "aerospace parts" is a very broad category. Some of it's fussy and some of it is utterly simple.

    I'm about 80% medical and 20% aerospace. I have no certifications- no ISO, no AS9100. I'm a one man shop. No QC manual, no formal QC system. I'm the machinist and the inspector. I calibrate my own tools, and I keep my own books.

    I do an audit every 2 years. I keep the paperwork in order. I don't BS them about my capabilities, and my customer keeps coming back. Incidentally, the customer is the OEM on these systems- been supplying them for 13 years now.

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    hey must be nice. No work gets done without having access to the portals for the tier 1's I deal with. Buyers wont even consider you unless you pass their own internal vendor risk assessment, not having ISO/AS9100 pretty much precludes you completely.

    I do outsource a good chunk of work as offload work, most are ISO shops but I do have a few that arent ISO and follow our own internal traveler instead and act as an "offsite employee" to some degree.

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  6. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    Making the part is probably only 10% of the equation.
    Just stop. That is the most ridiculous blanket statement I have heard in some time. Perhaps that is true for some specific parts or assemblies your are making, but it is not the norm. Again, OP is asking about machining some aerospace parts, not becoming a Tier 1 supplier of bracket assemblies.

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    How exactly do you figure thats a blanket statement?

    OP most likely isnt going to get "lucky" and only machine some parts without having finish work, assembly, or more done to the parts they machine. Most likely going to have to bid on packages that include sheet metal parts along with milled parts and outsource items they cant do in house.

    10% making the part sounds pretty reasonable for the total time spent per part, well for the small parts we make anyways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    for the small parts we make anyways
    Do you imagine that your experience speaks for all of us? That is why it is a blanket statement.

    I do lots of 5 axis aerospace parts for small aerospace companies. Generally the time that goes into paperwork is a very small percentage of the time that goes into programming and machining. Even the work I do for the big guys tends to be complex enough that the paperwork is not that big a deal. And you know what, my medical customers require almost the exact same amount of paperwork.

    Like Rob said; you lack experience. The wisest people tend to speak with authority only when they have enough perspective to warrant it.

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    You're hung up on a %?

    lets get back to aerospace parts arent just like everyday other "normal" parts.

    I'm curious how many of you actually own the shops you "do aerospace parts" and if you a tier 1 supplier or not...because I'll tell you right now that most of the crap I'm reading here is a bunch of bullshit based on what we deal with paperwork wise every single day as a REAL tier 1 vendor that does work for primes.

    Most of the part we ship out, I bet we scan close to 40 pages of paper for each F.A.I part.

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    I imagine there's a few people on this board that remember the Boeing Offload days. That office was setup specifically for mom and pop shops to get Boeing work.

    I know a few people that got their start through that office. You'd go in, and the jobs were laid out on tables. The fixtures and material were supplied by Boeing, and sometimes the programming and any special cutters as well. The time standards were all set, and it paid $45/hr back in the early 80's. The time standards were easy to beat, so you were pretty confident about what you were going to make on the jobs.

    You didn't have to bid it- just go through the room and take what you wanted. Bring it back when it's done. Boeing handled all the paperwork.

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    Of course I am hung up on the percentage. By your math a part that takes me 40 hours to produce would require another 360 hours of additional time! That is asinine.

    I would like to point out for the third time that the OP did not ask about becoming a Tier 1 supplier, so that whole question seems ridiculous. However I would like to ask you, do you have real experience dealing with other industries? What do you imagine a "normal" part is like? Won't that vary wildly depending on your shop and abilities?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    I imagine there's a few people on this board t5hat remember the Boeing Offload days. That office was setup specifically for mom and pop shops to get Boeing work.

    I know a few people that got their start through that office. You'd go in, and the jobs were laid out on tables. The fixtures and material were supplied by Boeing, and sometimes the programming and any special cutters as well. The time standards were all set, and it paid $45/hr back in the early 80's. The time standards were easy to beat, so you were pretty confident about what you were going to make on the jobs.

    You didn't have to bid it- just go through the room and take what you wanted. Bring it back when it's done. Boeing handled all the paperwork.
    What a dream...sounds like better paying Xometry work. Wonder why they got rid of that?

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    I have plenty of experience with "normal" parts. I had a 4.6 million dollar contract for a sister apple company and the items I made had all kinds of stupid tolerances. Like a 60" x 60" plate with 27,440 5 mill diameter holes in the 3/8" aluminum plate. If it was aerospace, the boo boo we had on the 92 hour run time for that part, would have been scrap....but since it was a "normal" jobshop part, we were able to cut out the bad section and weld in a replacement and continue the machining.

    that was a $8,500 part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    For me. I'll take a job shop machinist over an Aero machinist any day. I couldn't count how many interviews I've had with guys from Lockheed, Rockwell, L-3, and so many other places that you hand a part to and say "Can you make me this?" and I just get a dumb look as they ask "where is the print". I always got a kick out of those guys, They come in as the king debutantes of the machinist world wanting the highest pay yet lacked the basic ability to figure a bearing fit.
    If you hand me a part and ask if I can make it I will ask for a fully dimensioned and toleranced print (or a model that includes tolerances on every dimension) before giving an answer. If you don't have that, the design work isn't done. You're asking your machinist to reverse engineer a part and make a wild guess as to what tolerances are needed? Sounds like a blacksmiths shop to me.

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  18. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    ...Wonder why they got rid of that?
    I don't know the answer, but this was the pre-globilization era. Everyone was making Boeing parts, and Boeing was being fed by hundreds of different shops in the PacNW.

    IIRC it all started about the same time- they closed the offload office and surplus store, then not long after they moved the headquarters to Chicago, started selling their surplus through bidadoo, and probably some other things that I don't know about.

    Guess the bean counters didn't approve.

    I loved that surplus store...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    I don't know the answer. IIRC it all happened about the same time- they closed the offload office and surplus store, moved the headquarters to Chicago, started selling their surplus through bidadoo, and probably some other things that I don't know about.

    Guess the bean counters didn't approve.

    I loved that surplus store...
    All way before my time. I would have loved to be part of that though. Then again machining was much much different than it is today. I feel things are easier today than they once were.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    If you hand me a part and ask if I can make it I will ask for a fully dimensioned and toleranced print (or a model that includes tolerances on every dimension) before giving an answer. If you don't have that, the design work isn't done. You're asking your machinist to reverse engineer a part and make a wild guess as to what tolerances are needed? Sounds like a blacksmiths shop to me.

    So it's a blacksmith shop because the customer brings in a part and a bearing and you need to know how to look in a book to figure out the shaft size? Or maybe it has a drawing with dimensions like H11, N7, f7,,,,,? My point there was a lot of these chest beater button pushers want to call themselves "Aerospace machinist" but cant do anything that requires research.


    I have plenty of experience with "normal" parts. I had a 4.6 million dollar contract for a sister apple company and the items I made had all kinds of stupid tolerances. Like a 60" x 60" plate with 27,440 5 mill diameter holes in the 3/8" aluminum plate. If it was aerospace, the boo boo we had on the 92 hour run time for that part, would have been scrap....but since it was a "normal" jobshop part, we were able to cut out the bad section and weld in a replacement and continue the machining.

    that was a $8,500 part.
    I have to ask, Do you own the company or work for someone else?

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    You already know I own the company. lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    You already know I own the company. lol
    Actually no I didn't. Yes, I see your comments with "My guys" or "My employees" often, but a shift leader could claim that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    Actually no I didn't. Yes, I see your comments with "My guys" or "My employees" often, but a shift leader could claim that.
    Makes sense, I understand.

    Yes, I own the company.

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    I'm a Godamned Arrowspace Machinerer!!!

    mytakeontitan.jpg

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    This is a lot of Godamned paperwork, but I'm still an Aerospace dude.

    maxresdefault.jpg


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