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  1. #61
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    Kind of sad folks make fun of that guy. May not be someone you like because of his personality but you most certainly should appreciate all that he has done in the industry and not to mention...for the industry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    So it's a blacksmith shop because the customer brings in a part and a bearing and you need to know how to look in a book to figure out the shaft size? Or maybe it has a drawing with dimensions like H11, N7, f7,,,,,? My point there was a lot of these chest beater button pushers want to call themselves "Aerospace machinist" but cant do anything that requires research.
    H11 IS a tolerance. Your scenario was throw a part at a guy and ask him to make it without a print, and you ridiculed the concept that they had the gall to ask for a print. Yeah, if you bring in a trailer part and want an axle bearing fit with no spec, that's blacksmiths work. That's not acceptable in either aerospace or medical, nor anything life critical. You want to get sued because you misremembered or misguessed a tolerance and it killed someone? No print, no part.

    And yes, I would have to look up what the numbers for H11 are, since I don't do shafts or bearings, I do medical parts, and I haven't memorized the table. And I would expect someone working for me to do the same, because if they're pulling from memory they might get it wrong, just as I would expect them to use a calculator rather than try to do trig in their head, and I would expect them to look up the pitch diameter tolerance for a thread rather than try to remember it. I also use a feed and speed calculator program rather than pull numbers out of my butt. Take a few seconds to ensure you get it right, and get it right the first time.

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  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amanor View Post
    ...I have not done any machining in the aerospace field so what kind of things should I expect when programming and machining. I know there is a broad spectrum on this and we don't have very large machines so it'll be small parts for now. I am just curious on what others say and if they have any tips for me.
    There are a few things that are different than the typical commercial work. If you are working from paper drawings, I would say read the entire package before you start. It's not at all uncommon for an ADCN or DCN to be buried in the paperwork, and it can take years for drawings to get revised on type-certified parts. So make sure you are really programming the part you are supposed to be making, not the version from 5 years ago.

    Read the revision block and pay attention. Look for ADCN's and DCN's that change the part, but are not reflected on the drawing. That's the one big thing that can bite you in the ass real quick. And pay close attention to the dash numbers! The only thing worse than making the wrong revision is making the dash-opposite part .

    There are additional paperwork requirements, but that is a front office concern. There are certain basic process requirements- you need to keep certified material separate from the other crap, and restrict access to it. You need some kind of MRB lockup to limit access to non-conforming parts. You need to keep current on your calibrations. These are management issues, so also may not be your concern...

    Some parts have controlled operations, and you have to follow them to the letter. That might be anything from the amount of material you can remove in a pass, to the type of coolant you are using. It will be in the paperwork for the part.

    Other than those things, it's all pig iron. A part's a part, as far as I am concerned. I don't really care, and usually have no idea where it goes anyway.

    Just don't try to cut corners. Don't substitute non-certified material for certified material, even if you know it's the same stuff. Don't do sketchy shit like "ball bearing" an oversize hole to make it gage, etc.

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  6. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Sooo you are saying you have never made a mistake?

    Whether it is an honest mistake (misread a number) or an OH SHIT mistake (grabbed a 10-32 instead of 10-24 tap)....

    I've done both. AND it sucks balls when you are 20 hours into that detail. So much better to be able to call customer and say "um, well blah blah' then aerospace and just throw it away because it will be a year to get a deviance signed off on the print /part....
    Did I say I never made a mistake? No, I didn't. And yes, we scrap details that aren't to print and make them correctly. Seriously, you can't tell a 10-32 from a 10-24 just from feel?

  7. #65
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    I work for an aerospace OEM company in the Research and Development department. We make both research quality parts and development quality parts. There is a huge difference between the two even if they are the exact same part.

    Research parts are for internal use ONLY and never get sold. Research parts do not need all of the required bullshit paperwork, traceability, NDT, FAIR, or even a released drawing. Just make the damn part and see if it works in the test cell.

    Development parts on the other hand will be sold to a customer and need to have ALL of that paperwork bullshit correctly documented in the computer, perform a lengthy FAIR which can take several weeks to complete for one part. Many times the part manufacturing steps are the same from research to development but the part tends to sit around a lot waiting for the stupid paperwork to catch up.

    Yeah, I can agree with making the part is only 10% of the work for flight hardware.

  8. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rewt View Post
    Did I say I never made a mistake? No, I didn't. And yes, we scrap details that aren't to print and make them correctly. Seriously, you can't tell a 10-32 from a 10-24 just from feel?
    The tap was just a generic example...

    Maybe we are talking two different types of tool & die work. When I was doing tool & die work building, ya know, tools and dies and machinery, we did the design either
    1) in-house with our engineering department
    2) contracted it to a third party

    So there wasn't really a thing as "make it exactly to print" as the prints were for making details for an assembly or component of a larger machine or die, etc. We were supplying our customers with a tool to make a part 90% of the time. They didn't much care how it worked, or if a detail was "right" (and yes we updated prints if a detail got changed for some reason) as long as it produced the end part correctly to spec.


    Now job shop, making parts is different, maybe your customers won't let you revise something in process, or it's "not ok" to call them and ask questions about a tolerance. BUT that is different for every shop and every end customer I would think...

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  10. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philabuster View Post
    I work for an aerospace OEM company in the Research and Development department. We make both research quality parts and development quality parts. There is a huge difference between the two even if they are the exact same part.

    Research parts are for internal use ONLY and never get sold. Research parts do not need all of the required bullshit paperwork, traceability, NDT, FAIR, or even a released drawing. Just make the damn part and see if it works in the test cell.

    Development parts on the other hand will be sold to a customer and need to have ALL of that paperwork bullshit correctly documented in the computer, perform a lengthy FAIR which can take several weeks to complete for one part. Many times the part manufacturing steps are the same from research to development but the part tends to sit around a lot waiting for the stupid paperwork to catch up.

    Yeah, I can agree with making the part is only 10% of the work for flight hardware.
    At least there is one person that agrees. Being a tier 1 has its rewards but man the paperwork it nuts if you are doing your job right. Rightfully so, making items that could kill people if they fail is scary stuff. Not only for the ppl dead but I'd hate to lose my business and see all my employees lose their jobs because of a shortcut causing death and a huge lawsuit.

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  12. #68
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    A lot of this thread reminds me of a saying for another group:

    How can you tell if someone is a vegan?
    Don't worry, they'll tell you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAMasochism View Post
    A lot of this thread reminds me of a saying for another group:

    How can you tell if someone is a vegan?
    Don't worry, they'll tell you.
    Lol except that it takes no work to be a vegan and it costs 10s of thousands of dollars in paperwork before you can even think of doing aerospace parts for a prime plus thousands of hours of labor to understand and comply with the paperwork.

    I think those doing aerospace are proud of the path it took to get there, just like people are proud to post their first chatter ridden part on this forum, long journey to get where they are and want to share their accomplishments with like minded people.


    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    At least there is one person that agrees. Being a tier 1 has its rewards but man the paperwork it nuts if you are doing your job right. Rightfully so, making items that could kill people if they fail is scary stuff. Not only for the ppl dead but I'd hate to lose my business and see all my employees lose their jobs because of a shortcut causing death and a huge lawsuit.
    Oh come on, fuck your tier supplier bs. It doesn't make you special. We make hoists and components that lift bombs and nukes that can kill thousands if something fails. And guess what? We're not special either. To the guys in the shop, they're just parts with a paper trail.

    Back to the topic at hand.

    What part of from a machinist's/programmers perspective did you not catch? He's not the owner, he's not going out and finding the work. His employer is looking into getting into it. That's for his employer to worry about. You keep going on and on about paperwork. The OP only needs to worry about making parts. Which is just that, "making parts". For having to deal with so much paperwork, your reading comprehension sure sucks.

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  17. #71
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    I'm an Aerospace Machinist!!!! Everyone needs to give me a handy for it. I look in the mirror each day and tell myself "one day, Robert you're going to be good enough, smart enough, and dogonnit people will like you, respect you and worship your effort, because you are an Aerospace Machinist"

    Except I already am, and people still don't like, me and I'm definitely not fast enough. What a stupid circle jerk. Thing is, if you read through the whole Thread (unlike our friend who stops when he sees something he doesn't agree with) it's a topic that's circling itself. No one is saying it's not a lot of paperwork. One guy said Aerospace parts are different than other parts BECAUSE of the paperwork. Which is likened to saying the exact same car is different because of the price. He's retarded, I accept that.

    R

  18. #72
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    Hilarious that the folks that don't even own a shop post their two cents about "aerospace", a market they aren't even in.



    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Good job proving my point.

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  21. #74
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    youre still on the "aerospace parts are just parts" gig?

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    youre still on the "aerospace parts are just parts" gig?
    I will remain there until they become something besides parts.

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    Whats the name of the shop you work at, I want to make sure I never offload parts to that shop. Too much liability there for sure.

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    Oh my, the fishing is too good. I'm out.

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  26. #78
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    Lol except that it takes no work to be a vegan and it costs 10s of thousands of dollars in paperwork before you can even think of doing aerospace parts for a prime plus thousands of hours of labor to understand and comply with the paperwork.
    Oh my! However do you find time to do all the things you post about yet still find the time to CONTRIBUTE to the Practical Machinist community?

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  28. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    Oh my! However do you find time to do all the things you post about yet still find the time to CONTRIBUTE to the Practical Machinist community?
    Easy, I don't hire folks that think all parts are the same as aerospace parts.



    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Parts are parts, whether they go on some piece of machinery, a helicopter, an air plane, or a rocketship. The part has a print which shows dimensions and tolerance callouts and gd&t boxes and symbols. Some have notes and other information including .material it is to be made from, heat treating info, and coatings or markings. From the machinist and/or programmers perspective, if you make the part to print and it passes inspections, it's a good part. Some industries may call for additional testing such as various ndt operations such as mag partical, x-ray, or zyglo but that's out of the machinists/programmers hands and into another department.

    Some may need to follow paperwork trails for tracking such as routers, machine start and finish, inspection check lists, and line clearance before and after that shift or part.

    In the end, the part is still a part. All the other stuff is administrative and inspection related.

    Ive done medical and aerospace, I've done job shop work. I made parts. Fortunately I'm involved in aerospace now but not production so I don't have to deal with the paperwork.


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