new member need help on micro-machining design. forces involved. - Page 2
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 112
  1. #21
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Minnesota
    Posts
    1,741
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2255
    Likes (Received)
    1153

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by unime View Post
    I also hear people saying to not use Linux as an operating system unless you dont value your time but 85% of the internet runs on linux and it is very DIY (not paying someone else)
    How long would it take you to rewrite a Linux equivalent from scratch?

  2. #22
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    1,911
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1056
    Likes (Received)
    1227

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    Damping effect. I use 1000PSI TSC for dampening.
    Ya that too Everyone knows the ladies love cast iron, so I was kinda right

    Thankfully for myself and my family my ability to make parts far exceeds my ability to write books

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    West Virginia
    Posts
    40
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2
    Likes (Received)
    3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    HSM Advisor will tell you the deflection forces with accuracy for any given cut:

    Advanced CNC Speed And Feed Machinist Calculator - HSMAdvisor
    this program seems to say that it is a lot more practical. (Although tool deflection of the actual tool is the issue, the machine may be also.)

    cutting forces for a 1/8" carbide end mill is under 5lb, also under 2lb. and is very slow through hardened tool steel.

    Thank you for the info it helps a lot. Now I know what to design for and can model this in Autodesk for the materials I have access to.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    West Virginia
    Posts
    40
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2
    Likes (Received)
    3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    How long would it take you to rewrite a Linux equivalent from scratch?
    Machining metals pales in comparison to the amount of man hours that go into and the complexity of a system such as linux.


    Soon enough there will be desktop ECM machines and affordable metal 3d printers that cam make any parts and we won't have to pay for all of these expensive things made by so called "capitalists" (socialists)

  5. #25
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Minnesota
    Posts
    1,741
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2255
    Likes (Received)
    1153

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by unime View Post
    Thank you for the info it helps a lot. Now I know what to design for and can model this in Autodesk for the materials I have access to.
    Please do report back with your success in building a 5 axis machine that holds millionths on a shoe string budget. I'm sure it will be enlightening for us all, not to mention overturning the entire industry. While you're at it, you can make a freeway worthy car that runs on water and costs $1500.

  6. Likes Homebrewblob liked this post
  7. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    West Virginia
    Posts
    40
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2
    Likes (Received)
    3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    Please do report back with your success in building a 5 axis machine that holds millionths on a shoe string budget. I'm sure it will be enlightening for us all, not to mention overturning the entire industry. While you're at it, you can make a freeway worthy car that runs on water and costs $1500.
    while I understand your sarcasm, I do not appreciate it.

    I certainly plan to report back about this. It would be nice if it could hold "millionths" but I think that my ultimate target is closer to 5-10 microns. (three microns being about a tenth.)

    I will certainly start with 3 axis and then move on from there.

    I was looking into concrete beam deflections on 25kg loads, as that is twice the force of the endmill that is twice the size of what I want to use. it seems that it has "0.00cm" deflection for a 5cm square steel reinforced beam, 50cm long, 2000 psi. but that doesn't yet tell me about microns.


    Edit:

    There are cars being designed. I don't believe "water" is a solution buy maybe hydrogen cells from solar or wind.

    A.I. Designed this Car - YouTube

  8. #27
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Minnesota
    Posts
    1,741
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2255
    Likes (Received)
    1153

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by unime View Post
    I think that my ultimate target is closer to 5-10 microns. (three microns being about a tenth.)
    5 microns is darned near 2 tenths, which is what you can reliably expect from a Haas. Don't forget to stack up all your tolerances and deflections over the entire machine, including thermal growth. Go to five axis and your linear error doubles, when flipping a part 180°, before even considering rotational error. There's a plethora of hobby grade machines for a few thousand dollars, and believe me I've looked at them closely. None of them will do the job reliably. Will they hold tenths a few times in a row, under just the right conditions? Sure, then a few minutes later they'll have drifted a couple thou. Quality costs money, whether you buy it outright or as a kit. How much do you plan on spending on quality rails, ballscrews, thrust bearings to preload them, and servos (don't even say "stepper")?

    4zv25d.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by unime View Post
    There are cars being designed. I don't believe "water" is a solution buy maybe hydrogen cells from solar or wind.
    Not going to make a freeway worthy hydrogen or solar car for $1500 either. You'll spend close to that on just wheels and tires.

  9. Likes plastikdreams liked this post
  10. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    West Virginia
    Posts
    40
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2
    Likes (Received)
    3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    5 microns is darned near 2 tenths, which is what you can reliably expect from a Haas. Don't forget to stack up all your tolerances and deflections over the entire machine, including thermal growth. Go to five axis and your linear error doubles, when flipping a part 180°, before even considering rotational error. There's a plethora of hobby grade machines for a few thousand dollars, and believe me I've looked at them closely. None of them will do the job reliably. Will they hold tenths a few times in a row, under just the right conditions? Sure, then a few minutes later they'll have drifted a couple thou. Quality costs money, whether you buy it outright or as a kit. How much do you plan on spending on quality rails, ballscrews, thrust bearings to preload them, and servos (don't even say "stepper")?

    4zv25d.jpg



    Not going to make a freeway worthy hydrogen or solar car for $1500 either. You'll spend close to that on just wheels and tires.
    I am aware of all this. Also, "closed loop" steppers. custom (my design) driver boards.

    obviously a whole car brand new is not going to be $1500, the raw materials cost more than that, and inflation is only going to make things worse. Its a fact of economies. I don't personally value money. People who value money don't value life. But I don't want to get into it.

    Open source is the ONLY solution.

    Open source means that the inconsistency can be inspected and narrowed down. software errors can be ruled out more easily.

    I can see how thermal issues might take effect in these tolerances.

  11. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Flushing/Flint, Michigan
    Posts
    10,157
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    572
    Likes (Received)
    8311

    Default

    The cutting forces in micro machining are so small.
    The accuracy requirements are high. Way, way past closed loop steppers on a contour.
    I know it seems so straightforward and just high resolution but micron and sub-micron level work is not like it looks in the computer.
    I do not mean to be poopy and 50 years ago I thought "How hard can it be".
    Build it, try and learn things no matter those that say it will not turn out well. If you do not try you will not learn the whys.
    I was once a very big fan of open source and anti MS at any level so I get that. It would turn out not so well and millions of dollars lost.,,, Duh but hindsight is 20/20.
    Bob

  12. Likes mhajicek liked this post
  13. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    West Virginia
    Posts
    40
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2
    Likes (Received)
    3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    The cutting forces in micro machining are so small.
    The accuracy requirements are high. Way, way past closed loop steppers on a contour.
    I know it seems so straightforward and just high resolution but micron and sub-micron level work is not like it looks in the computer.
    I do not mean to be poppy and 50 years ago I thought "How hard can it be".
    Build it, try and learn things no matter those that say it will not turn out well. If you do not try you will not learn the whys.
    Bob
    I guess so. I was thinking of using reducing pully systems on ball screws. Maybe steel reinforced gt2 belts pully systems designed with no backlash. (it is possible using a symmetric double reduction.)

    I'm still trying to find a way to do this with enough IO pins. There will need to be both high resolution optical slide encoders, as well as hall effect on the steppers and on the pully reduction output shaft.

    AS5600 hall effect encoder chip seems nice it has 12 bit resolution and can output a higher accuracy programmed to 18 degrees range minimum (which can be changed on the fly as the motor moves.)

    Edit: It would be interesting to see if I can measure deflection in realtime, of the mill head, and try to compensate and prevent breaking endmills. (using load cells.)

    I'm sure everyone is right and this is all not possible but I'm going to try anyway.

    I guess when it doesn't work I can just kill myself because I spent everything I had trying.

  14. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Flushing/Flint, Michigan
    Posts
    10,157
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    572
    Likes (Received)
    8311

    Default

    Ah, you are chasing feedback resolution which makes sense out front.
    Now is the rest of the system, up to the task?
    There is a world here of mechanical errors and loop time consonants that you are bypassing which is why I say 100% go for it.
    I would actually push and fund an employee with such tends.

  15. Likes Screwmachine liked this post
  16. #32
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Minnesota
    Posts
    1,741
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2255
    Likes (Received)
    1153

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by unime View Post
    I don't personally value money.
    If you don't value money then why not plop down a few hundred thousand for a machine built right?

    I've found that people who say they don't value money say that because don't have any, and it makes them feel better. Once they start being able to earn some money they start valuing it. I value money not just because of what I had to do to get it, but because of what it can get me, like a properly built machine tool, a decent house, and the means to support my family.

    Yeah, I get it, everything should be free. Then how do you motivate people to do the hard work? They won't do it voluntarily. Look at free CADCAM, it's all crap. The good stuff costs money.

  17. Likes Homebrewblob liked this post
  18. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Flushing/Flint, Michigan
    Posts
    10,157
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    572
    Likes (Received)
    8311

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by unime View Post
    ...
    I'm sure everyone is right and this is all not possible but I'm going to try anyway.
    .
    Fail or not I do so much LOVE dearly this one statement of stand and do.
    Bob

  19. Likes kustomizer liked this post
  20. #34
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Ohio
    Posts
    953
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    915
    Likes (Received)
    337

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Fail or not I do so much LOVE dearly this one statement of stand and do.
    Bob

    Loving it won’t keep the lights on,
    Either he’s another’s Elon musk or he’s not.

    Good luck op

  21. #35
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Minnesota
    Posts
    1,741
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2255
    Likes (Received)
    1153

    Default

    That's the thing. If you want to build a machine, go ahead and build a machine. If you want to USE a machine, just buy one, 'cause it'll be a very long time and more money than buying one to make one that's almost as good.

  22. #36
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    5,797
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5488
    Likes (Received)
    3701

    Default

    Another Einstein asking for advice but is smarter than everyone else and doesn't want to take any.

    What are the odds that this person has never touched an endmill in their life,but has read a lot about them?

  23. Likes mhajicek, woodchuckNJ, Mike1974 liked this post
  24. #37
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    21,115
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by unime View Post
    I am hoping someone would have a ballpark of an idea how thick of standard 2000 psi concrete / how much force is involved in cutting harder to machine materials with smaller bits.

    this is a DIY thread not a buy thread.

    I also hear people saying to not use Linux as an operating system unless you dont value your time but 85% of the internet runs on linux and it is very DIY (not paying someone else)
    ...and it doesn't belong here.

    Please look around and READ.

  25. #38
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    21,115
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    Another Einstein asking for advice but is smarter than everyone else and doesn't want to take any.

    What are the odds that this person has never touched an endmill in their life,but has read a lot about them?
    Now...why would the OP want to "pay" for something he can steal/hack for FREE ?

  26. Likes Mtndew liked this post
  27. #39
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    1,911
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1056
    Likes (Received)
    1227

    Default

    While I'm as guilty as anyone, it's probably time to let this one die a quiet DEATH

  28. #40
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    21,115
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by unime View Post
    I am aware of all this. Also, "closed loop" steppers. custom (my design) driver boards.

    obviously a whole car brand new is not going to be $1500, the raw materials cost more than that, and inflation is only going to make things worse. Its a fact of economies. I don't personally value money. People who value money don't value life. But I don't want to get into it.

    Open source is the ONLY solution.

    Open source means that the inconsistency can be inspected and narrowed down. software errors can be ruled out more easily.
    So what exactly does a "PT Engineer" doo ?
    And how much of that "Money" thing does it pay ?


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •