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  1. #21
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    Certainly seems something isn't happy in DIN rail land.

    DIN rail shock and vibration resistance is said to exceed the German railway requirements of 350G shock and 5G vibration so it takes a fair pounding to shift properly mounted kit.

    But the plastic symmetrical rail mounts are vulnerable to Hammer-it Harry when he is in a hurry and doesn't hook things on properly. I've seen some pretty sadly distressed examples. Usually with a decent size box hanging off them too. I guess that when you have a reasonable load to lift on it takes a deal more care to make sure all is properly hooked before clicking the catch home.

    Clive

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    we're looking to purchase another mikron from this dealer, so they will have to make this right if they want the sale.
    If you don't mind me asking...

    When you buy a machine like this: used, expensive, complex (much more so than a basic VMC) who does the install/set up? Do you call Mikron? (Do MTBs deal with resetting up there used machines?) Are you capable of that inhouse? The dealer you are buying it from? Independent tech (if you could find one that knows such machine)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lakey0 View Post
    If you don't mind me asking...

    When you buy a machine like this: used, expensive, complex (much more so than a basic VMC) who does the install/set up? Do you call Mikron? (Do MTBs deal with resetting up there used machines?) Are you capable of that inhouse? The dealer you are buying it from? Independent tech (if you could find one that knows such machine)?
    a mix. i know how to do a lot of it. then depends on availability, either GF or independent techs that i know. i do have 1 locally that is an ex GF technician that went out on his own.
    MTB's most definitely will install a used machine (on your dime of course)

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    Quote Originally Posted by lakey0 View Post
    If you don't mind me asking...

    When you buy a machine like this: used, expensive, complex (much more so than a basic VMC) who does the install/set up? Do you call Mikron? (Do MTBs deal with resetting up there used machines?) Are you capable of that inhouse? The dealer you are buying it from? Independent tech (if you could find one that knows such machine)?


    On a related tangent - seems...




    GFMS USA Notification Letter


    September 2021

    Recent Change in Distribution



    Dear Valued Customer:



    With your continued success always top of mind, GF Machining Solutions is pleased to announce we have transitioned to a direct sales and select distributor model in several key areas. This approach is being implemented in our Western and Central regions previously served by Hartwig Inc.

    GF Machining Solutions and Hartwig have enjoyed a successful partnership over the years and this transition was a mutual decision on the part of both companies. GFMS is excited to take these important steps to be closer with our customers. Our entire team and distributor network is dedicated to helping manufacturers across North America improve their operations, compete at a higher level and achieve sustainable success.

    The expansion of GF Machining Solutions’ direct sales, select distributor and enhanced service support network is backed by a growing team of world-class sales managers, field service engineers, application engineers and phone support associates. The Direct and Distributor after-sales service teams will be further strengthened over the coming months, and all support efforts will be streamlined and coordinated through GF Machining Solutions’ customer service organization.

    Customers in affected areas will be contacted directly by GF Machining Solutions in the coming weeks. Stephan's and Jim's teams will be in touch with additional information. In the meantime, we encourage you to reach out to them with any questions. Their direct contact information follows:


    Steve Swanson

    Director of Sales – Distributor Channels

    Phone: +1 847 913 5300

    Mobile: +1 847 650 7551

    [email protected]


    Jim Nagle

    Director of Sales – Direct Channels

    Phone: +1 215 680 2444

    Mobile: +1 215 680 2444

    [email protected]



    For immediate service and sales assistance, attached to this letter you will also find useful GF Machining Solutions Service Hotline numbers for immediate help.

    Sincerely, All of us at GF Machining Solutions are looking forward to working more closely with you to achieve your goals…OUR TEAM IS YOUR TEAM!





    Sincerely,

    Philipp Hauser President

    Head of Market Region North & Central America
    [Emphasis added.].


    The meat being - "transitioned to a direct sales and select distributor model in several key areas. This approach is being implemented in our Western and Central regions previously served by Hartwig Inc."



    Quote Originally Posted by lakey0 View Post
    If you don't mind me asking...

    When you buy a machine like this: used, expensive, complex (much more so than a basic VMC) who does the install/set up? Do you call Mikron? (Do MTBs deal with resetting up there used machines?) Are you capable of that inhouse? The dealer you are buying it from? Independent tech (if you could find one that knows such machine)?

    ^^^ I was thinking the same thing. But seems Empwoer / Empower [Obviously I don't speak for him ] is pretty smart in making decent friends with a Mikron/Hermle type tech.

    So at least he / they have experience in swapping out spindles and making other fixes + on control adjustments + finish / complete installs.

    Similarly I hear on Craig's list, ~ one can find MAZAK techs lol.

    __________________________________________________ ________________________________

    The new Mikron GFMS centralized sales service and support would encompass second hand machines I would assume ???

    I guess it's gonna take them a few weeks / months for them to really hit their stride on all that -GFMS - that is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lakey0 View Post
    If you don't mind me asking...

    When you buy a machine like this: used, expensive, complex (much more so than a basic VMC) who does the install/set up? Do you call Mikron? (Do MTBs deal with resetting up there used machines?) Are you capable of that inhouse? The dealer you are buying it from? Independent tech (if you could find one that knows such machine)?
    This is an area where one would want know their own abilities, those of the manufacturer/distributor, and independent techs. Some builders will charge a “registration” fee for used machines before they will provide any support.

    More vital than most of the above is getting all the manufacturer’s documentation with the used machine purchase. Often things like electrical diagrams are tough to get and without those it makes getting a complex used machine running and keeping it running difficult to impossible.

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    cleaning it up a bit, getting ready to set up.
    this layout seems like will be fantastic for chip management.
    20210918_135948.jpg

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    I always loved the design of the Mikron and Grob for chip management.

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    It's finally under power and close to being operational!
    Beyond excited to see it making chips.

    Also went to the TRD facility in Costa Mesa courtesy of GF for a tour and MY GOD! that mfg facility is what automation dreams are made of. 8 mikron mills (more on the way) being fed by 2 linear robots and close to 200 pallets total, achieving an overall 90%+ machine time utilization rate... absolutely insane. If I haven't been enough of a GF fanboy before, I sure as shit am now!

    Step by step, our goal is to at least reach half the efficiency that TRD folks are getting.

    Oh and tomorrow I'm flying to Vegas for the Nascar race, also courtesy of GF

    20210924_185300.jpg

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    I wish I was allowed to accept the perks like that from reps.

    One MTB offered to fly me AND my girlfriend to Italy for a week. A tool rep wanted to fly me to Vegas for the weekend, among other places. One of my tooling vendors got Rego-Fix to fly him and his girlfriend to Switzerland for a week.

    Sadly, I'm not allowed to accept such things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    It's finally under power and close to being operational!
    Beyond excited to see it making chips.

    Also went to the TRD facility in Costa Mesa courtesy of GF for a tour and MY GOD! that mfg facility is what automation dreams are made of. 8 mikron mills (more on the way) being fed by 2 linear robots and close to 200 pallets total, achieving an overall 90%+ machine time utilization rate... absolutely insane. If I haven't been enough of a GF fanboy before, I sure as shit am now!

    Step by step, our goal is to at least reach half the efficiency that TRD folks are getting.

    Oh and tomorrow I'm flying to Vegas for the Nascar race, also courtesy of GF

    20210924_185300.jpg
    GF / Mikron - also makes what I call - "Spooky factory machines" - ultra dense clusters of spindles radially disposed into a fairground carousel of "Whiz-bangery".

    It seems on another level for hi-tech "manufactory" - never met anyone that ran one of...




    ^^^ These

    I think I count at least 20 spindles. [would be interesting to see how that goes head to head with 4 mazak bartacs / $ and number of precision parts spat out .].

    Not sure where the transition point or tipping point would be for someone to go from robots on rails + palette systems to a 21 spindle merry go-round ? ~ Seems with the right parts it would be super efficient on floor space. - fun to program lol.

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    Programming that isn't a big deal.
    It's all broken down to what happens at each station.


    ---------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Are Gluten Free machine tools worth the extra cost?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    Are Gluten Free machine tools worth the extra cost?
    Of course, they make the crunchiest of chips.

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  21. #34
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    Riffing on cameraman's question - what are the cost tradeoffs between something like a hydromat vs a row of simpler machines with some kind of robotic transfer and feeding?

    The MultiX refered to would seem to be competing with hydromat, index, and the like, no?

    I wonder how much path dependency there is here - multi-spindles and transfer machines predate CNC by quite some time - would they have arisen if modern robots/transfer systems existed first?

    (And Empwoer - congrats, and do let us know how the positioning accuracy is... (:-))

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    Riffing on cameraman's question - what are the cost tradeoffs between something like a hydromat vs a row of simpler machines with some kind of robotic transfer and feeding?

    The MultiX refered to would seem to be competing with hydromat, index, and the like, no?

    I wonder how much path dependency there is here - multi-spindles and transfer machines predate CNC by quite some time - would they have arisen if modern robots/transfer systems existed first?

    (And Empwoer - congrats, and do let us know how the positioning accuracy is... (:-))

    Well, this is likely a $1.5M machine

    To put this on a twin turret lathe would take $500K min

    So that is 3 simples v/s one complex.

    But the simples will only have a max of 2 tools in the cut at once.

    One thing to remember that I think gets lost most always, is tool replacement / verification time/material loss.
    When you stop the machine to replace a tool, the whole shebang is on hold. And then you need to run a part off from that position -on, to verify size/finish/whatnot.
    When you replace tools on 3 simples, only one goes down at a time, and the balance are still running. You will still need to run a part off to check dimensions, but it is only enough material for one part. In the case of the complex, you may toss out at least a half dozen parts as they come off if the part wasn't in spec after the tool change. (no differ'nt than an Acme)

    In this case (with what appears to be alum) the complex wins hands down.
    But your Q should always be put forth on any job like this, as it is much better for investment and ramp up/down for multiple simples.


    ----------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Right. And thinking back to the first hydromat I've ever seen, at IMTS, running. It was spitting out a part pretty fast - 1.8 seconds? 2,000 per hour? Something like that?
    (It really was "tink...tink...tink..." where every tink was some brass fitting.)

    So if you wanted a *whole lot* of those parts, that sort of machine might reach a cycle time that robots/gantrys/etc. would have difficulty keeping up with. That would be true of an index, an acme, a davenport as well to varying degrees and complexities, no?

    As for the Mikron - the money in running that machine is surely in lights out reliable running of all 20 pallets. Within reason it's not about cycle time, it's about how many good parts will it make while it's being ignored. Which makes me ask - how many tools does it hold?

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    Adding onto Ox's words...my thoughts of 3x simples over 1x headache....
    If 1x simple breaks, 2x are still running.
    Headache (for instance) gets swarf in a microswitch and stops. Then you gotta fault find it....
    Part gets revised - prove on 1x simple and load copy prog into other 2x and you're away.
    Headache surely takes longer?
    Quality of guy to get headache running would be much rarer than getting simples running.
    Part qty ramps down, 2x simples can make other parts.
    Part ramps up, add 1x simple.
    Also....more simples are made than the headaches. This = lower lead time and also "teething" problems. High end manufacturer machine or not, on these types there's always PLC or parameter type teething and this can take an age to get running. Iron out bugs in a simple - copy the parameters across (within reason)....
    Obviously floor area is a compromise, which is an ever increasing cost nowadays.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    Right. And thinking back to the first hydromat I've ever seen, at IMTS, running. It was spitting out a part pretty fast - 1.8 seconds? 2,000 per hour? Something like that?
    (It really was "tink...tink...tink..." where every tink was some brass fitting.)

    So if you wanted a *whole lot* of those parts, that sort of machine might reach a cycle time that robots/gantrys/etc. would have difficulty keeping up with. That would be true of an index, an acme, a davenport as well to varying degrees and complexities, no?

    As for the Mikron - the money in running that machine is surely in lights out reliable running of all 20 pallets. Within reason it's not about cycle time, it's about how many good parts will it make while it's being ignored. Which makes me ask - how many tools does it hold?

    1.8s is fast even on a Davenport.

    Kan't imagine that on a Hydromat, but the legacy machines claim as low as .5s index time on their website, so ....

    Gunna be tough to find a job that runs that fast that requires the complexity of a Hydromat tho.

    Odds are that you could run the same part in a $30K Davenport and put the other $720K into beer, boats, and broads.



    --------------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    It was at IMTS, probabably 2004 or 2006 - so an older machine. The part was not very large, but seemed to have a lot of features. I hadn't really started machining yet (didn't even have a mill in 2004) and so I didn't think to inspect it for gratuitous features.

    (Recalling the later mazak integrex demo that involved a shaft with very large threads, very small threads, pinon gear teeth, a worm, and some splines, all on the same Very Large shaft. "We can do it in one setup!" Great, but what possible application is there for such a part? It was demo part, I get it, but still...)


    As for simple vs complex, I worked (in software) with a very wise man who said something close to this:
    When somebody says something is "simple" - it means "we understand this" When somebody says something is "complex" - it means"we do NOT understand this."
    That was in the context of PC hardware, OS software, etc., so by objective measures (nodes in a graph, size of a state machine, bits of state, etc) everything was Very complex. But some things we were really comfortable with, others, not so much.

    I think that applies to Barbter's argument - it's not that a 2-axis CNC live tool lathe with a bar feeder and parts catcher is really all that "simple" - but rather that people undertand them, deeply. The deeply part is key - the knowlege or intuition of "always do this, never do that, if it does A do B immediately..."

    There's a similar phenomenon around G-code - it often doesn't run the same from one machine to the next - but when the salesperson says "this machine runs g-code!" what they really mean is "your programming staff, post writers, setup people, will NOT be utterly flummoxed by this..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    Right. And thinking back to the first hydromat I've ever seen, at IMTS, running. It was spitting out a part pretty fast - 1.8 seconds? 2,000 per hour? Something like that?
    (It really was "tink...tink...tink..." where every tink was some brass fitting.)

    So if you wanted a *whole lot* of those parts, that sort of machine might reach a cycle time that robots/gantrys/etc. would have difficulty keeping up with. That would be true of an index, an acme, a davenport as well to varying degrees and complexities, no?

    As for the Mikron - the money in running that machine is surely in lights out reliable running of all 20 pallets. Within reason it's not about cycle time, it's about how many good parts will it make while it's being ignored. Which makes me ask - how many tools does it hold?
    You are spot on with the last paragraph. The sad reality is that there are no qualified people to run multiple machines efficiently, so the next best thing is maybe slower overall production, but way more dependable and repeatable. Robots don't have a bad day, hangover or gf dumping them.
    Our 600 holds 60 tools, but this is our entry into the automation and is only the first machine we buy. Next ones will have more


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