Which new vmc? Haas, Doosan, Milltronics, etc...

Bradyz · Jan 30, 2020

Looking for input and suggestions on a new vertical machining center. I have looked at a Haas VF2SS, Doosan DNM4500, Milltronics VM2515 and Sharp SV-2517SZ-F so far. Any other machines I should be taking a look at? Any cons to those I have already mentioned? Here's what I am needing:

-Almost exclusively machining aluminum
-Needs a 4th axis
-I plan to run 8"x8"x8" blocks on the tombstone with parts that are up to 3" tall so I need at least 20" in Z.
-X= anything bigger than 18" Y= anything bigger than 15"
-Smaller footprint (no more than 132" wide including a conveyor)
-No umbrella toolchanger
-Chip Auger or conveyer
-At least 10k spindle
-High speed machining
-Ideally would like to be under $85k

I am not particular really to any control. I do almost everything in CAM and just throw it onto the machine. I run 95% of my parts on located pallets and tombstones so probing isn't really important for me. Any suggestions are super appreciated. Thanks guys!

RJT · Jan 30, 2020

Either Haas or Doosan (we have both), I would take a close look at your distributor for service and applications support. I would say Doosan would be my first choice, I have had fantastic reliability with Fanuc controls and drives. Similarly tooled they will be close in price, but I think Doosan will be better long term.

Mtndew · Jan 30, 2020

Bradyz said:
Any other machines I should be taking a look at? Any cons to those I have already mentioned? Here's what I am needing:

-Almost exclusively machining aluminum
-Needs a 4th axis
-I plan to run 8"x8"x8" blocks on the tombstone with parts that are up to 3" tall so I need at least 20" in Z.
-X= anything bigger than 18" Y= anything bigger than 15"
-Smaller footprint (no more than 132" wide including a conveyor)
-No umbrella toolchanger
-Chip Auger or conveyer
-At least 10k spindle
-High speed machining

What is your budget?
Okuma Genos M560V would blow away anything you have listed.
Brother is a good choice as well and excels in small footprint area.

Bradyz · Jan 30, 2020

Mtndew said:
What is your budget?
Okuma Genos M560V would blow away anything you have listed.
Brother is a good choice as well and excels in small footprint area.

I would like to stay under $85k, the less I spend on the machine the more I can spend on tools and fixtures which would be nice. An Okuma Genos M560V would be sweet but as far as I'm aware there isn't even a distributor here so I'm not sure how service would be, and its likely way out of my budget.

SIM · Jan 30, 2020

I have Haas machines and they have treated me well.

They are light duty, no getting away from that. I work around that by taking an extra cut or backing off the speeds and feeds some...but I'm based around short runs for the most part so cycle time is not paramount.

To the other choices I have seen my customer run parts I now make for him on his Doosan. I can say if I needed to push out more work quicker, I'd take a good look at them.

Why I Have Haas...when I started I had a much better CNC...sort of. It was a workhorse that held tight tolerances...but when it had a hiccup, and they all do...it was call the company and wait till they called back. Could be a half hour, hour or a day. They'd walk me through a few checks...sometimes I was back up and running other times it was schedule a service call. That could be a day, a week or if I didn;t want to wait I could fly someone in, put them up in hotel. I opted to wait. When service came in after a 4 hour drive they'd figure out issue and hopefully had a fix. If a part was needed...that got RED labeled in, tech went home and back...hopefully it was the right part and the part needed to get her back up and running. A problem could be a week or two down...not good when you only have one machine or even two or three...

Anyway, for me Haas rarely went down and I rarely had an issue....but when I did calls were answered quickly. Most problems they could walk me through fixs for service calls I am usually able to get someone here in a day or two. They are fairly close and come with 90% of the parts so I'm up and running the same day they come.

But that is Haas here...for you, make sure the machine dealer is a good one, good tech support, parts and not bad to check pricing on some of the most required parts.

mhajicek · Jan 30, 2020

Running a 2015 VF-3SS here, have an HFO ten minutes away. The one time the tech ordered the wrong part it brought the down-time all the way out to three days. Other machines I've heard of people being down for weeks waiting on parts.

D.D.Machine · Jan 30, 2020

I have owned Haas and Doosan and do a lot of 4th axis work ,,, I do mostly alum and found out fast that the Auger setup on haas blows the doors off the conveyor setups ,,, the chips that get part the Auger end up at the back of the machine in a screen,, a couple times a day you pick up the screen and bump it ,,, after months of running parts I get about a coffee can of chips out of the sump when I clean it ,,, the conveyor system runs the chips up the belt and any that don`t drop off end up down in the tank ,,, pulling the tank out from under the machine once or twice a week to scoop "BUCKETS" of chips out of it takes hours and is a pain ...

Other part you really should take a look at is the control ,, Fanuc is vary pricey to add memory to and it comes with vary little on the lower end Doosan machines and adding a 4th axis to a Fanuc is going to be twice the price as Haas or more ,,,

You also need to do the numbers for your Z clearance requirements, The tool arm swings your tools down and around over the top of your 4th axis fixture and it can get fun fast trying to use long drills on a big 4th axis part .. I have some programs I have to move the table out of the way to swing the tools into the spindle ,,

As for Sharp just "RUN" away ... years ago there were selling machines made by FIRST and were nice little mills ,,, then they went super cheap and turned to junk when they started trying to build there own machines ..

I do mostly Alum parts and Have been running Haas for about 6 years and have looked at other builders and owned some over that time and my feeling is simply that if you can build your parts on a Haas machine buy a Haas ... Yes Okuma and others out there make better machines but as for support and return on investment Haas holds its own ..

g-coder05 · Jan 30, 2020

Leave Sharp and Milltronics in the rear view. You would probably be hard pressed to find service near you and parts would be even harder. Normally I would say Haas since you are just doing aluminum but from the time I've spent in and around Salt Lake most shops are filled with Matsuura and DMG and Doosan. Ive been to a few shops in Ogden that ran some older Haas but thats about it.

Prime Machine in Salt Lake has a large investment in Mori's and DMG/Mori has a good service department in that area. The DMG CMX 800V fits right inside your specs and price range. You would get a better machine than the Doosan but slightly less than the Okuma Genos.

I don't know anyone from Ellison in that area so I don't have much input there other than several posters here have started complaining about Ellisons services.

The VF2-SS with your options specs is $72,380 then you will get the standard 5% discount (Possibly 10%). You didn't specify how heavy of cuts you are taking and what type of tolerances you look to hold but if it's just average parts the Haas would be the best fit for ROI. We have 46 VF2-SS's and another 10-15 Haas machines around the plant and for the investment its perfect for the work (Buy 3 at a time get 25% discount) . I have never had to wait more than 24 hours for parts (usually they have what I need on the truck).

With that being said, The HFO in Salt lake looks to be a bit small on google so that would concern me if I had to set up shop there. For me with what I have to go on so far, If I had to move shop to that area I think I would go either with the DMG or Matsuura. Granted DMG/Mori has a bad name right now as far as service everywhere else due to them dropping Ellison but I have been at Prime and when they snap their fingers Mori jumps.

If you can scrounge up a little more you could move into a Matsuura and have the top of the line VMC along with what I have seen for your area is top notch service. The VX-660 gives you almost a 40" X travel and feed rates over 2000 IPM. Visit Petzl, Rock industries, Advanced Products out in the industrial park and you will see rows of the Matsuuras ripping up material for the rock climbing industry.

Mtndew · Jan 31, 2020

Bradyz said:
I would like to stay under $85k

That's going to be tough if you have to have a 4th unless you buy used.A 4th is minimum $15k for anything half decent unless you just get an indexer and not a full 4th rotary.
And don't forget to tack on at least another $10k for a conveyor, so now your machine price drops to $60k, and not many good new ones out there for that price,if any.

Bradyz · Jan 31, 2020

g-coder05 said:
Leave Sharp and Milltronics in the rear view. You would probably be hard pressed to find service near you and parts would be even harder. Normally I would say Haas since you are just doing aluminum but from the time I've spent in and around Salt Lake most shops are filled with Matsuura and DMG and Doosan. Ive been to a few shops in Ogden that ran some older Haas but thats about it.

Prime Machine in Salt Lake has a large investment in Mori's and DMG/Mori has a good service department in that area. The DMG CMX 800V fits right inside your specs and price range. You would get a better machine than the Doosan but slightly less than the Okuma Genos.

I don't know anyone from Ellison in that area so I don't have much input there other than several posters here have started complaining about Ellisons services.

The VF2-SS with your options specs is $72,380 then you will get the standard 5% discount (Possibly 10%). You didn't specify how heavy of cuts you are taking and what type of tolerances you look to hold but if it's just average parts the Haas would be the best fit for ROI. We have 46 VF2-SS's and another 10-15 Haas machines around the plant and for the investment its perfect for the work (Buy 3 at a time get 25% discount) . I have never had to wait more than 24 hours for parts (usually they have what I need on the truck).

With that being said, The HFO in Salt lake looks to be a bit small on google so that would concern me if I had to set up shop there. For me with what I have to go on so far, If I had to move shop to that area I think I would go either with the DMG or Matsuura. Granted DMG/Mori has a bad name right now as far as service everywhere else due to them dropping Ellison but I have been at Prime and when they snap their fingers Mori jumps.

If you can scrounge up a little more you could move into a Matsuura and have the top of the line VMC along with what I have seen for your area is top notch service. The VX-660 gives you almost a 40" X travel and feed rates over 2000 IPM. Visit Petzl, Rock industries, Advanced Products out in the industrial park and you will see rows of the Matsuuras ripping up material for the rock climbing industry.

Milltronics and Sharp are both services by the same company that services Mazak here.i have heard some good things about them, good to know though that sharp isn't as good as it was. My previous machine was a sharp mini and it was a pretty good machine.
I visited the Haas HFO and they seemed to actually have a pretty impressive amount of parts in stock. I have also talked to a couple of Haas shops that seem happy.
I talked to the guys at dmg/mori and the cmx machines seem to be way out of range, probably looking around the 120s.
I would absolutely love to get an Okuma machine but I don't think anyone sells them here. On the Okuma site the nearest was in Colorado. They seem to have a promo running on the Genos m560 for just under 100k. I would be way more tempted if they had a local place here.
Still waiting to hear back from Matsuura.
I can get a Doosan dnm4500 in my price range with a rotary, I really like the salesman but what I have heard from the service is hit and miss.

Mike1974 · Jan 31, 2020

You can get a Haas vf3ss fir just under $95k list, probably get another 5-10% off that price when you talk to a dealer OR might get a couple free upgrades...

You can get that down to $79k if you go with a vf2ss, BUT it's travels don't quite meet your requirements so you would have to check if you really need those travels, or maybe the part could be done in two ops flipping it 180deg in Y?

Matsuura is going to be way out of your price range unless you go used

Bradyz · Jan 31, 2020

Mike1974 said:
You can get a Haas vf3ss fir just under $95k list, probably get another 5-10% off that price when you talk to a dealer OR might get a couple free upgrades...

You can get that down to $79k if you go with a vf2ss, BUT it's travels don't quite meet your requirements so you would have to check if you really need those travels, or maybe the part could be done in two ops flipping it 180deg in Y?

Matsuura is going to be way out of your price range unless you go used

The VF2SS actually does fit for the travels I need. Even the VF1 would be big enough for the travels I need. I have definitely been considering just buying a Haas for the aluminum work I am doing now and moving to something more rigid when the work comes. There is even a used 2019 Haas VF2SS that was offered with a rotary for just under $60k which has been real tempting to tide me over until the next machine.

Mike1974 · Jan 31, 2020

Bradyz said:
The VF2SS actually does fit for the travels I need. Even the VF1 would be big enough for the travels I need. I have definitely been considering just buying a Haas for the aluminum work I am doing now and moving to something more rigid when the work comes. There is even a used 2019 Haas VF2SS that was offered with a rotary for just under $60k which has been real tempting to tide me over until the next machine.

I think you might be pleasantly surprised at what a Haas is capable of. Sure it's not going to run one of these very well (if at all) -

https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tn...loeM-RgNNId_6XgAmGRy_I8DbEv0qiOYaAsXqEALw_wcB

but if you have the capability of programming HSM you will be good to go. Maybe won't get tool life of the higher end machines, but unless you are looking at volume I think you will be fine with a Haas since you said mostly aluminum.

Bradyz · Jan 31, 2020

Well I just found out Okuma does actually have quite a presence here and one of their service guys even lives about 5 miles from me...

mhajicek · Jan 31, 2020

Bradyz said:
Well I just found out Okuma does actually have quite a presence here and one of their service guys even lives about 5 miles from me...

How long does it take them to get parts? What's the time and cost if you need a spindle replaced? Not saying it's bad, I honestly don't know, but that would be the kind of question I would be asking.

VTM · Jan 31, 2020

mhajicek said:
How long does it take them to get parts? What's the time and cost if you need a spindle replaced? Not saying it's bad, I honestly don't know, but that would be the kind of question I would be asking.

Availability of parts. No problem. Cost, Well we'll just use Axis Driver to Axis Driver for example. 3X what it cost for a Fadal. They are super accurate and durable machines. But they ain't cheap to work on.

roll maker · Jan 31, 2020

If you are certain that all of your programming will be done on a cad/cam system, and the choice of control is irrelevant, pick the brand with the best service/support in your area

EmGo · Jan 31, 2020

If you are going to be doing everything on tombstones, parts are 8" x 8", why not just do it right and get a horizontal ? It'll kick the pants off any vertical for that kind of work. Prices are higher but you could look for a used one, say 2010-2012-ish and get in for 80k or less, and have a real machine. Just saw some Toyodas in that age group, good specs and condition report, glass scales, the whole nine yards went for less than sixty.

Bradyz · Jan 31, 2020

EmanuelGoldstein said:
If you are going to be doing everything on tombstones, parts are 8" x 8", why not just do it right and get a horizontal ? It'll kick the pants off any vertical for that kind of work. Prices are higher but you could look for a used one, say 2010-2012-ish and get in for 80k or less, and have a real machine. Just saw some Toyodas in that age group, good specs and condition report, glass scales, the whole nine yards went for less than sixty.

I misspoke saying the parts are 8x8x8. The "tombstones" I plan on running are 8x8x8. Reason for going with a vertical is that its generally a much smaller footprint and pricing is generally significantly less. With the smaller "tombstones" I can quick change them out and keep the machine running while another is loaded up without having a pallet system.

BROTHERFRANK · Jan 31, 2020

Something like this?

Which new vmc? Haas, Doosan, Milltronics, etc...

Plastic

Titanium

Diamond

Plastic

Titanium

Diamond

Stainless

Titanium

Diamond

Plastic

Diamond

Plastic

Diamond

Plastic

Diamond

Hot Rolled

Aluminum

Diamond

Plastic

Stainless

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