I currently have a 2005 Hardinge VMC 1000II 40x20 machine 8,000 RPM spindle with a Fanuc Oimb control that I bought new and has been a good machine. I have been looking for a used machine to match it but I have not had much luck. I really want 2 machines that are as close to the same as possible. This is why I am now considering 2 new machines. Also we cut a lot of aluminum so going to a higher RPM spindle is a plus too. We are not a traditional machine shop and most of the work we do is pretty simple mostly 2 axis stuff. So, I don't need a fancy machine just one that is reliable and has good service and availability of parts when needed. I would consider Hardinge again but have had some trouble over the years with service and parts. I am wondering what brands people think I should look at. I know there are a ton of Haas machines out there but are they the best value? I know this is really a subjective question on the "value end" of the spectrum but any feedback will be greatly appreciated.
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- Thread starter Sei2003
- Start date
- Replies 33
- Views 6,446
Quite a few guys here got Okuma Genos the last few years, seems to be pretty awesome machines for the price.
Most of the top brand names are offering high value/reasonable cost machines these days. Makino has a couple models as well I think.
That's where I'd be starting, assuming they have good service in your area.
Most of the top brand names are offering high value/reasonable cost machines these days. Makino has a couple models as well I think.
That's where I'd be starting, assuming they have good service in your area.
Jashley73
Titanium
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2013
- Location
- Louisville, KY
If you're doing Aluminum, you should look into a Robodrill, or it's evil twin Brother...
The M560 is a badass machine but they aren't cheap, and getting less so this year. It's a high performance machine, like 2 or 3 leagues above a vmc1000....I should know, I have both machines.
I'm not a haas fan but for what you are describing I think they would be the way to go, or a Hardinge GX, the new Hardinge v1000 is cost competitive with a new Haas and is probably a better machine, it has the spindle speed and control you need. That Fanuc control on the VMC1000 sucks something fierce, reliable but clunky and hard to use compared to newer stuff.
If your looking at used machines I think Haas wins just based on volume of stuff out there. New take a look at the V1000.
I'm not a haas fan but for what you are describing I think they would be the way to go, or a Hardinge GX, the new Hardinge v1000 is cost competitive with a new Haas and is probably a better machine, it has the spindle speed and control you need. That Fanuc control on the VMC1000 sucks something fierce, reliable but clunky and hard to use compared to newer stuff.
If your looking at used machines I think Haas wins just based on volume of stuff out there. New take a look at the V1000.
They aren't super expensive either. But they are worth every penny and should cost much more than they do.
We have 2 of them and I can tell you they are the best vmc I've worked on in my 25 years of cnc milling.
I wonder about that, when I was on the okuma website last night I could swear the base price for the genos models(lathes) went down from the last time I looked maybe a couple months ago. ? I do remember it going up sometime last year... maybe it reverted back? or I'm losing it... quite likely as well.
I think the exchange between USD to the Jap Yen and Taiwan dollar are working in your favor. Definitely should be with the Japanese machines.
There is a reason it's more money, Okuma is one of the best. They come fully loaded. Haas comes barebones, so price a Haas with all of the options that you want and you're not too far off the price of an Okuma Genos M560.
The Okuma Genos has a Big Plus spindle, 30 TRUE horsepower not 30 Haas horsepower.
It's not even close as to which machine is better.
That being said, plenty of people love Haas. It all depends on what you want out of your machine.
There is no reason to pay for more machine than you need. It is certainly a bonus to have a machine that can handle some growth.
We got our first 560last year with the thru spindle coolant and the probe package, The first machine with either of those things in our shop, and it immediately changed the way we work.
The thing is fast, I guess there are VMCs out there that have faster rapids, but I don't know what they are. Having a 15K spindle is probably the biggest factor you would need to consider. You're paying a premium for a SS model from Haas. As you know, RPM is what drives your speed in aluminum parts.
They bill it as a "production" machine, but we love it in a mostly prototype shop. having 100 work offsets is fantastic. I do wish it had more tool capacity.
We got our first 560last year with the thru spindle coolant and the probe package, The first machine with either of those things in our shop, and it immediately changed the way we work.
The thing is fast, I guess there are VMCs out there that have faster rapids, but I don't know what they are. Having a 15K spindle is probably the biggest factor you would need to consider. You're paying a premium for a SS model from Haas. As you know, RPM is what drives your speed in aluminum parts.
They bill it as a "production" machine, but we love it in a mostly prototype shop. having 100 work offsets is fantastic. I do wish it had more tool capacity.
Exactly, we're a job shop and have 2 of them, looking into getting more because they are so fast. Even the control execute speed is a lot faster than our Fanuc 0M control and our older Okuma E100M control.
Not to mention the Hi-Cut Pro that is a lifesaver for HSM paths.
Captdave
Titanium
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2006
- Location
- Atlanta, GA
Last year we looked at both the Okuma M560 and Hurco VMX 42 and optioned out equally the Okuma was a little less but a whole lot more machine in terms of speed and rigidity. I really do miss the Hurco Winmax control, that thing has a soft key for just about anything you need to do in MDI mode. The Okuma control is top notch but you spend more time pecking around especially when doing prototype work, I'm sure I would like it more if I spent more time on it but I prefer to do all the prototype and small runs on the Hurco VM10. She's a sweetie
In what way?
Last year the 560 listed for 119K, this year it's 129K. Still a steal as the 560 is actually the Okuma MB-56 which is a 160K+ machine. Okuma wanted in to the volume 40x20 100K VMC market, so they standardized options (good ones) and made castings in Taiwan. The machine is still assembled in Japan. Viola! they had a 100k class machine that performed like it cost twice as much.
I got a killer deal on mine, probing, Koma 4th, tooling package...install...and ended up just a little north of this years list price on the base machine.
The machine is a beast, the control is insanely fast, I've done surfacing jobs that ran 300K lines of code and ran @400ipm. It was smooth as silk. Hi-cut is the tits.
Load up a Haas with the same options and you will spend the same money, but you won't have half the machine. This thing came off the truck over 20K lbs according to the riggers and you can tell, it's a solid vertical. I've heard people describe it more like a horizontal on it's side.
If you can swing it, it's an awesome machine. I really hesitate to recommend it only because I don't want everyone to have one!
ETA: Gotta go...I need to setup the second job of the day in the 560..and it's only lunch time.
I got a killer deal on mine, probing, Koma 4th, tooling package...install...and ended up just a little north of this years list price on the base machine.
The machine is a beast, the control is insanely fast, I've done surfacing jobs that ran 300K lines of code and ran @400ipm. It was smooth as silk. Hi-cut is the tits.
Load up a Haas with the same options and you will spend the same money, but you won't have half the machine. This thing came off the truck over 20K lbs according to the riggers and you can tell, it's a solid vertical. I've heard people describe it more like a horizontal on it's side.
If you can swing it, it's an awesome machine. I really hesitate to recommend it only because I don't want everyone to have one!
ETA: Gotta go...I need to setup the second job of the day in the 560..and it's only lunch time.
Captdave
Titanium
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2006
- Location
- Atlanta, GA
On the Hurco almost everything is soft key driven. Want to clear the tool out of the spindle back to the tool changer, 2 soft keys done. No MDI P XXXTXX Gxx this that and what ever then ALARM, the pool pot was down so now more MDI whatever to clear that then start over. Or my favorite, clear the current tool and load the part probe, again 2 soft keys and cycle start.
Not bashing the control but they sure could have made it a little more user friendly, but as I said if I used it more I wouldn't have to have a cheat sheet to do simple tasks. The probing app is sweet.
Not bashing the control but they sure could have made it a little more user friendly, but as I said if I used it more I wouldn't have to have a cheat sheet to do simple tasks. The probing app is sweet.
Clearing a tool is done by a soft key also on the P300M. I think it's 3 button presses. Return Cycle Start in the ATC is what you're wanting. Hit the black button "Machine Operation" and then it's in the ATC field along the F keys.
I've always heard good things about the Hurco controls, but I've yet to see one in person.
Captdave
Titanium
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2006
- Location
- Atlanta, GA
Our Hurco rep Skip was by a month or so ago and asked if we are still happy with the Okuma purchase and and told him we just love the machine but wished it had a Winmax control on it and he just rolled his eyes.
Once you have used one it's hard to accept anything else.
Once you have used one it's hard to accept anything else.
TangentCNC
Aluminum
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2016
- Location
- Chandler, Az, USA
Okuma Genos M460 ---^ 
