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New vs old

Yukon Eric

Plastic
Joined
Dec 6, 2019
Would you get rid of a 13 year old mori seki vertical mill, that you have not had any trouble with for 13 years. And still hold tight tolerance.
And is paid for!
For a new
Haas vf4 that you will have to go into debt to purchase?

Seems backwards to me, my employer will be doing this in the next couple years. They think the mori is old technology.
 
You know the answer you are going to get from here.

I could see an argument for standardization if the shop was loaded with HAAS machines, but otherwise no reason to replace a moderately new "good" machine with a brand new commodity machine.

Some shops just constantly have money for new equipment, and seem to buy like crazy, even when the ROI is dubious. I'm not sure how they do it - but I am jealous!
 
Would you get rid of a 13 year old mori seki vertical mill, that you have not had any trouble with for 13 years. And still hold tight tolerance.
And is paid for!
For a new
Haas vf4 that you will have to go into debt to purchase?

Seems backwards to me, my employer will be doing this in the next couple years. They think the mori is old technology.

Tell your boss I'll take that old piece of junk off his hands free of charge!
 
Don't know the whole context. Are there tax or similar obscure but important financial considerations? Will the new machine have higher spindle speeds or a bigger tool changer or a better network connection or some other efficiency of use feature that's hard to retrofit to a 13 year old machine? Does the VF4 have a bigger work envelope? Or a smaller footprint? Is buying a new machine part of some deal that makes an important customer feel more secure? Does this change the number of posts, or verifier models, or similar things that have to be supported? Has the management found that the last 7 times they advertised for new staff all the applicants knew haas but nothing else and were terrified of whatever controller is on the mori? Do maintence and repair records suggest the mori has reached the end of its useful life?

Or has haas been named the indiana state vegetable and they get political favors for it? Perhaps the shop is infested with alien space bats?

(I have a haas VF5 I quite like, but I didn't trade in a good Mori for it, but there may be some more complicated back story we don't know.)
 
Yes there may be tax reasons, but to me that does not offset going into debt.
Mori and vf4 are for the most part the same size. So no gain.
The network connection would be an upgrade with the vf4, not having the better network connection does not limit our ability to produce parts. As far as new employees not wanted to run the mori, I can’t answer that.
We have not had any maintenance problems with the machine the last ten years.
Thanks for the response’s
 
Since the shop owner isn't here to explain, I at least cannot know. It's possible that the decision is sketchy. Or not.

But let's talk about debt. In particular, debt in an environment where real interest rates appear to be negative, deductability of interest costs for *business* investment is likely to persist, and inflation is reasonably likely. Debt is not necessarily bad (though it certainly can be). Having everything paid off is not necessarily good (though it can be). So no this doesn't jump out at us as an obviously brilliant thing, but again, without knowing the *whole* story, it's not fair to comment.
 
New control features enable you to be more competitive, that's one of the major selling points of buying a new machine in the first place.
I suspect you will see that a decade newer machine has some advantages that maybe aren't obvious right now.
 
I don't know the OP's shops reasons, but a few years ago we upgraded an old VMC. It had a few problems, but it's new owner worked those out and has it running like a champ now. We upgraded mainly because of the old control (DX-32) that while sufficient for our needs, getting machinists to use it was like pulling teeth because it was "different." The new machine is Fanuc which matches other controls, has a higher speed spindle, faster tool change, as well as it came with some other add-ons like tool and part probes. Newer mill also had more support while the old one was technically obsolete.

Sometimes replacing machines is more politics than anything. Management has to pick and choose which battles they fight with staff because just canning someone for not doing things exactly how you like isn't always fair. A new machine with new paint can do wonders for moral and motivation. Instead of managers trying to sweet talk operators into getting 100% utility out of all the old machines, the operators themselves start looking for excuses to use new features and improve old programs with the new machines. People see new tools coming in the door and think the company must be on the right track. It's not a fix for staff issues, just a tool in that helps.

All that said, I don't know that a new Haas is an even trade for an old Mori? Kinda like trading in an old BMW for a new Toyota. I really wish Haas put more into their machines, but that's perhaps a different conversation for a different thread.
 
Would you get rid of a 13 year old mori seki vertical mill, that you have not had any trouble with for 13 years. And still hold tight tolerance.
And is paid for!
For a new
Haas vf4 that you will have to go into debt to purchase?

Seems backwards to me, my employer will be doing this in the next couple years. They think the mori is old technology.

Kinda depends which Mori - vertical you are talking about.

Rough specs / options and model etc. (would bring more clarity perhaps).

A VF4 has 50" travels.

Is your Mori Seiki a Dura Vertical 5100 or larger ?

Or something like an NVX 7000 ?

+ type of work / plan ?
 
I don't know the OP's shops reasons, but a few years ago we upgraded an old VMC. It had a few problems, but it's new owner worked those out and has it running like a champ now. We upgraded mainly because of the old control (DX-32) that while sufficient for our needs, getting machinists to use it was like pulling teeth because it was "different." The new machine is Fanuc which matches other controls, has a higher speed spindle, faster tool change, as well as it came with some other add-ons like tool and part probes. Newer mill also had more support while the old one was technically obsolete.

Sometimes replacing machines is more politics than anything. Management has to pick and choose which battles they fight with staff because just canning someone for not doing things exactly how you like isn't always fair. A new machine with new paint can do wonders for moral and motivation. Instead of managers trying to sweet talk operators into getting 100% utility out of all the old machines, the operators themselves start looking for excuses to use new features and improve old programs with the new machines. People see new tools coming in the door and think the company must be on the right track. It's not a fix for staff issues, just a tool in that helps.

All that said, I don't know that a new Haas is an even trade for an old Mori? Kinda like trading in an old BMW for a new Toyota. I really wish Haas put more into their machines, but that's perhaps a different conversation for a different thread.

completely COMPLETELY depending on your work. We run aluminum and brass every day. A new premium Japanese machine tool would likely amount to squat in performance to us. We hold tenths with our Haas machines, and run 12k rpm all the time. What is the cost of a Japanese/Taiwain machine tool with a 12k spindle? I don't know, but pretty sure it is more than a Haas, and all of our Haas have the same controls, probing routines, VQC, etc. No worries about having different versions of Fanuc controls with oddball quirks.

Now if you are hogging tool steels, etc, sure, that Mori is probably going to be way better, but even then, with HSM techniques, you can "hide" alot of machine tool deficiencies IMO.
 
I wouldn't mind a 13 year old mori. Our newest mill is a 2008 Kitamura, but the 2nd oldest is 2000 and most are mid 90's

But I'm pretty happy with all those paid off, crappy generic mills (not my shop, just an employee).

Maybe I'd be happy with a new haas too. Doesn't matter much to me, so long as it makes chips and it doesn't come out of my compensation.

I sure as hell wouldn't be publicly criticizing my employer for buying a new machine, no matter how dumb (or smart) a business move it is. It wouldn't matter if I was 100% sure they wouldn't see it. They have business friends and probably one of them would talk to my boss. lol.

Or maybe they know you really don't want a haas and want you gone? Can find plenty of kids out of community college well versed with their control.
 
I wouldn't mind a 13 year old mori. Our newest mill is a 2008 Kitamura, but the 2nd oldest is 2000 and most are mid 90's

But I'm pretty happy with all those paid off, crappy generic mills (not my shop, just an employee).

Maybe I'd be happy with a new haas too. Doesn't matter much to me, so long as it makes chips and it doesn't come out of my compensation.

I sure as hell wouldn't be publicly criticizing my employer for buying a new machine, no matter how dumb (or smart) a business move it is. It wouldn't matter if I was 100% sure they wouldn't see it. They have business friends and probably one of them would talk to my boss. lol.

Or maybe they know you really don't want a haas and want you gone? Can find plenty of kids out of community college well versed with their control.

We are looking at this

6-Station Pallet Pool, VC-400/SS

It will be a crap ton of work for me to set up, but excited if it happens. :D

edit: I'm salary, so it will suck pay wise as it will probably be 7 days/week to get up and running, but I enjoy a challenge (every once in a while) ;)
 
This more of an economics question than a machining question (for the record, I think a 13 year old Mori is a better machine than a 2021 Haas).

Right now is a good time to be looking at all of our investments. We are most likely entering into a period of substantial inflation. Putting money into debt might make more sense than sitting on cash. If I were in your situation I would probably be buying the Haas on credit and keeping the paid off Mori (which has intrinsic value). Any cash that would have been used on the purchase, would be invested in things I could not finance or in inflation resistant securities.
 
You mean they don't stick those guys straight onto the machines with $70K spindle cartridges?

That's a good point. What's the average yearly maintenance cost on the Mori as compared to the Haas? I know of the Haas blows a spindle you can get it replaced in a couple few days for a couple few grand.
 
If I was in a position where I had to buy a new machine on a limited budget it would be an Okuma Genos M470. Perhaps your boss hasn't heard of them......

But then I start looking at what 100K would buy for a used machine

Once you've run a double column true 25-30hp machine you will likely never want to use a C frame style again
 








 
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