Nikken vs Haas 4th Axis

Okay it looks like a Nikken is about twice as much as a comparable Haas, but also about twice as fast and at least twice the brake torque...and it's yellow! The Haas is actually more accurate (15 sec vs 20). Is that about all it comes down to, physical dimensions aside? I have an old Haas 4th and really haven't had any problems with it so I, personally, can't say "durability" seems to be an issue... Any input or experiences would be appreciated!

Having seen inside both units, there is no comparison. The HAAS may spec. better accuracy but this will be true for maybe the first week of real work. The same is not true for the Nikken. The Nikken will run years in real production without evening requiring a backlash adjustment.

We just recently purchased a used Nikken CNC302 that experienced some contamination issues, we went through it, disassembling it completely, cleaning and lubricating all parts, stripping and painting. The fit and finish on all components is top notch.

HAAS may have there place (like their VMC's) but for what we plan on doing the Nikken is the only choice. (350lb. work pieces, steel, roughing)).

C'mon, April Fools was yesterday....

real world with a nikken 500mm cnc table in a HMC. HMC had thrashed linear rails, thrashed ballscrews, thrashed spindle bearings, basically took new screws, new rails, new laser comp. The one thing that was 2-5 arc seconds was the nikken cnc table ( estimating about 70k hours on the machine at the time in positioning duty). Nikkens are awesome tools if you can afford them.

We had Nikken tables on our production VMC's. They survived some pretty badass crashes that always left me scratching me head. No matter - re-indicate, and re-teach the 4th axis home position, and all was good again. I have no idea how they've made them so durable, but they have. Excellent products for sure.

Go with the nikken in production environment or if you're doing heavy cutting. We had zero issues with ours and they ran for 10k's of hours.

Haas is fine for everything else. They're not bad.

waiting for the day Haas put the roller cams in their 5 axis trunnions, instead of the tiny belts you wouldn't put on your bicycle.

IIRC the Nikkens use a carbide worm and hard steel gear. right?

FTW; Okuma uses bevel gears on their full 5axis machines. No sliding friction= better by design.

John Welden said:

Haas is fine for everything else. They're not bad.

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Quoting for posterity.

Depends what you want to get done and how fast.
I'd also take Haas specs with a grain of salt...

Big difference when a machine is designed to meet a price point compared to a machine built to be the best.


Nice part of a Haas, price and if running on a Haas with 4th axis...its so easy.

Go with the Nikken.
Have you looked at Tsudakoma at all?

Nikken has not given any problems to me , The has on the other hand tend to have issues , we have had several issues with it,

I'd throw Sankyo in the mix for consideration...their rotaries are often OE in multiaxis machines.

I know at least one of our machines has an integrated Sankyo rotary, and it is fantastic.

I work for Pioneer Tool and Workholding. We offer two different table lines, Yukiwa and our own name brand. We are just outside of Chicago and employ our own installer. We can make this very easy for you.

Mtndew said:

Go with the Nikken.
Have you looked at Tsudakoma at all?

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Well it's part of a new Speedio so the Nikken is what Yamazen offers...I wonder if I could even use a different brand without installing a new 4th axis servo amp?

I thought Brother had something set up with Yukiwa? If you can get me the table size your looking for, I can send you some pricing to look at.

Hi,

I know this post was a good few years ago but I wondered if you had resolved? I've got a lot of experience with rotary tables and would be more than happy to help and advise.

Ryan

There is a lot above, and I think it’s best to start with how you want to use the added axis. We have used them all, so just my take here:

If you need a 4th axis, then drive and motor has to be matched to the machine / control. This gives feedback to the machine for position and conformation the rotation of the axis actually happened. There are controller boxes you can buy for an “indexer”, but no feedback so no way to confirm when you fire mCode to 260 degree that the rotation actually happened without matched drives and motors for the specific machine.

Haas - Usually, these are index only for most other builder machines other than Haas. The rotary must use a control box, but low cost and generally good. If index only, then 4th may not be possible without matching drives and spending money. If you are looking 4th axis route, then the Japanese makers are all very close at installed cost.

Nikken - This is a great over all 4th axis. Also, probably offers the best support that I’ve seen. Good speed and Good capability. If you have a super fast machine like a Brother, then a good over all choice for milling and 90 degree position time (about 1 second with average spec mid 40s for rpm).

Tsudakoma / Yukiwa - These 2 are very close to each other. Offer a great wide range of tables (speed too), but the bulk of their business is milling. Think dump trucks here as these tables have big gears and weigh a lot. These guys build good tables that are little slower, but can run forever. (About +1.5 sec with average spec -40 for rpm).

Sankyo - These are your race car designs. Fast table, zero backlash roller drive, and run without a brake. Great table but probably the most expensive (although Koma can be $$$). If you are in dedicated production, then look at these. (Under 0.4 sec to 90 degrees - fastest I’ve seen when installed).

Speedio - These are Brother only. Basically, Brother uses the Sankyo roller drive technology for their internals, and added a brake for index lock / hold capability. These are built very well, and integrate directly / seamless install for Brother Speedio Machine. Great table to look at if you have a Brother, but only comes T-200 (only 200mm face size)

mwarren1999 said:

Tsudakoma / Yukiwa - These 2 are very close to each other. Offer a great wide range of tables (speed too), but the bulk of their business is milling. Think dump trucks here as these tables have big gears and weigh a lot. These guys build good tables that are little slower, but can run forever. (About +1.5 sec with average spec -40 for rpm).

Sankyo - These are your race car designs. Fast table, zero backlash roller drive, and run without a brake. Great table but probably the most expensive (although Koma can be $$$). If you are in dedicated production, then look at these. (Under 0.4 sec to 90 degrees - fastest I’ve seen when installed).

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I've run Speedios with Yukiwa Direct Drive, Nikken, and my own Speedio has the Sankyo on it.

I would never buy a Nikken. The table is slow, and the lock/unlock cycles take forever. Rigidity seems pretty good, but I think there are just bette options.

The Yukiwa Direct Drive tables are amazing. Super fast, super accurate. We do simultanious 4th axis swarf cutting on them in large volumes, and with a little bit of backlash compensation, they run forever. In these setups, we have a rather elaborate trunnion system, so rigidity is not an issue. If your application has support on the far end, this is the table to get (about $20k).

My machine has a Sankyo RCC170 on it, and I still think this is probably the best option out there for all-around performance in a job shop environment. Super rigid, so I can hang a tombstone off of it without side support. No pneumatic lock/unlock and a high index speed makes it crazy fast (faster than the Yukiwa). The drive mechanism still means that there is a lot going on between the drive and the output, so it isn't perfect for simultaneous motion (the Yukiwa wins at that)... but I think simultaneous 4 axis machining is a dumb idea in a Speedio anyhow.

Oddly, the Sankyo is the least expensive option.

rsmith90 said:

Hi,

I know this post was a good few years ago but I wondered if you had resolved? I've got a lot of experience with rotary tables and would be more than happy to help and advise.

Ryan

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Thanks, Ryan. We ended up going with the Nikken that Yamazen recommended...CNCZ204 if I remember correctly. I cannot say I did a ton of investigation into alternatives but rather relied mostly on what my Yamazen guy said because I’d had good experiences with them so far. It’s bolted to a trunnion and used almost exclusively on parts that require a simple 90 degree index to cross drill a hole.

The S700 + Nikken setup had been working great and we needed to increase capacity for the parts make in it so we went to duplicate the setup with a floor-model S700 (this time with dual contact spindle and, more importantly, high torque + CTS!) and another Nikken. The install got pretty well botched (first they told me the CNCZ204 wasn’t available so they ordered something else that took forever to get in and when it showed up it was a very different model...so they offered a different alternative that would be a more-direct replacement for the 204 but then it turns out the 204 WAS available all along, etc so the S700 sat there for weeks waiting for a rotary that, apparently, was in stock.) It seems like all is good now, though. Two machines running good, both with the Nikken CNCZ204.

Oh yeah, on the newer machine we ordered an auxiliary brake that is activated by the Nikken to clamp on the other end of the trunnion so it (the trunnion) is locked in place by both the brake in the Nikken and the secondary hydraulic brake on the other end of the trunnion. I sleep just a little better with that second brake on it because I can push drills harder with the high torque CTS machine and I was worried about the trunnion tipping.

Nerdlinger said:

Thanks, Ryan. We ended up going with the Nikken that Yamazen recommended...CNCZ204 if I remember correctly. I cannot say I did a ton of investigation into alternatives but rather relied mostly on what my Yamazen guy said because I’d had good experiences with them so far. It’s bolted to a trunnion and used almost exclusively on parts that require a simple 90 degree index to cross drill a hole.

The S700 + Nikken setup had been working great and we needed to increase capacity for the parts make in it so we went to duplicate the setup with a floor-model S700 (this time with dual contact spindle and, more importantly, high torque + CTS!) and another Nikken. The install got pretty well botched (first they told me the CNCZ204 wasn’t available so they ordered something else that took forever to get in and when it showed up it was a very different model...so they offered a different alternative that would be a more-direct replacement for the 204 but then it turns out the 204 WAS available all along, etc so the S700 sat there for weeks waiting for a rotary that, apparently, was in stock.) It seems like all is good now, though. Two machines running good, both with the Nikken CNCZ204.

Oh yeah, on the newer machine we ordered an auxiliary brake that is activated by the Nikken to clamp on the other end of the trunnion so it (the trunnion) is locked in place by both the brake in the Nikken and the secondary hydraulic brake on the other end of the trunnion. I sleep just a little better with that second brake on it because I can push drills harder with the high torque CTS machine and I was worried about the trunnion tipping.

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*leans over and puts his spare change in his "Nikken" someday jar*