Okuma year end pricing on M560V 99k! - Page 2
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 50
  1. #21
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    570
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    146
    Likes (Received)
    220

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    They also have the L250II for $55,400. That is a lot of lathe for that price.
    $43,055 if you're section 179 according to the Okuma website.

    I may have set a couple bucks aside for next year, I never realized the end of year deals on new machines. I've always bought used.

    Thankyou for posting that, it made me look up prices of new machines which I never did before.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Gilbert, AZ
    Posts
    6,103
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7697
    Likes (Received)
    7848

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardplates View Post
    I may have set a couple bucks aside for next year, I never realized the end of year deals on new machines. I've always bought used.

    Thankyou for posting that, it made me look up prices of new machines which I never did before.
    Used machine tool dealers are worse than used car salesman. The markups are obnoxious.

  3. Likes coffeetek, Alloy Mcgraw, MotoX liked this post
  4. #23
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    570
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    146
    Likes (Received)
    220

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    Used machine tool dealers are worse than used car salesman. The markups are obnoxious.
    I've actually done very very well on used machines and never bought anything I couldn't sell for 2-3Xs what I paid, some a lot more. I've bought used machines with nothing wrong with them for scrap price or less just cause the seller needed to get rid of them quickly. I don't buy when I need a machine, I buy when I see a screaming deal.

    I was just under the impression that a good new machine was around the 200K mark (but I never actually looked, just assumed). I know Haas is less and they are fine machines, just not for me. I like my Japanese machines and controllers.

  5. Likes Garwood liked this post
  6. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Washington
    Posts
    5,269
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    201
    Likes (Received)
    1599

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardplates View Post
    $43,055 if you're section 179 according to the Okuma website.
    Dumb question -- why big difference between the "US Section 179 price" and the "Non Section 179 price"? I get using Section 179 for up-front depreciation, but did not realize there was a pricing difference from the seller on account of Section 179.

    Regards.

    Mike

  7. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Gilbert, AZ
    Posts
    6,103
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7697
    Likes (Received)
    7848

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Finegrain View Post
    Dumb question -- why big difference between the "US Section 179 price" and the "Non Section 179 price"? I get using Section 179 for up-front depreciation, but did not realize there was a pricing difference from the seller on account of Section 179.

    Regards.

    Mike
    I would venture a guess that means one price in 2019. After Dec. 31st the price goes up. Just a guess?

  8. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,975
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3493
    Likes (Received)
    833

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Finegrain View Post
    Dumb question -- why big difference between the "US Section 179 price" and the "Non Section 179 price"? I get using Section 179 for up-front depreciation, but did not realize there was a pricing difference from the seller on account of Section 179.

    Regards.

    Mike
    I don't think there is , it's just a projected (equivalent ) price if you file that way under or using the 179 "benefit/ deduction"

    So they post equivalent prices … Not sold at those prices. [But they seems happy to do a lot of legwork / help with paperwork ???? ] At least that's how it seems I could be 100% wrong.

    "The information presented above is not specific legal, tax or accounting advice. Consult an accountant or other tax professional to confirm your eligibility for tax incentives and benefits."


    ^^^ Okuma US web site .

    _____________________________________________


    Deduct up to $1,000,000.00 with the Section 179 US tax deduction.

    EXAMPLE: $210,000 Total Equipment Cost

    Equipment Cost: $210,000
    2019 Section 179 Deduction: $210,000
    Total First Year Deduction: $210,000
    Tax Savings (*$210,000 x 21% tax rate): $44,100
    Equipment Cost After Tax Savings (*Equip Cost-Tax Savings): $165,900

    _____________________________________________

    Buy now, Time is running out etc. etc. etc. etc. buy now, buy now, flashing neon sign.

    _____________________________________________


    Time is running out to take
    advantage of this offer

    HERE ARE THE DETAILS:

    Major US tax deductions on machines purchased by 12/31/2019.
    (up to $1,000,000.00 per the Section 179 US tax deduction)
    Deduction applies to leased, financed, and paid-in-full purchases.
    Okuma has machines that can ship by 12/31/2019.
    Take advantage of 2019 prices instead of increased 2020 levels.

    Machines must be installed by 12/31/2019 per tax requirement.*

    Service teams are available for immediate installation assistance.




    ______________________________________________


    https://site.okuma.com/hubfs/2018%20...9-c7a75bdf1818

    ^^^ More section 179 details from Okuma

    Invest in 2020 with Year-End Incentives | 179 Tax Deduction | Okuma America

    ^^^ How 179 works etc. from Okuma

    ____________

    * Waddabout for 2021 (instead) ?

  9. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Oregon
    Posts
    1,913
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    766
    Likes (Received)
    2268

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Finegrain View Post
    Dumb question -- why big difference between the "US Section 179 price" and the "Non Section 179 price"? I get using Section 179 for up-front depreciation, but did not realize there was a pricing difference from the seller on account of Section 179.
    The Section 179 price is fuzzy marketing math.

    They are saying that if you kept the $99,900 in the bank, it will be booked as profit on 31 December at midnight, and Uncle Sam will be making you pay 20% of that in taxes. As such, they are basically saying that if you use 179 to buy that M560-V, it effectively works out as a 20% discount.

  10. Likes wheelieking71, cameraman liked this post
  11. #28
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    801
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    129
    Likes (Received)
    438

    Default

    Yup it is nothing more than saying "you'll also pay this much less in taxes for this year if you buy it before the end of the year and depreciate it instantly under Section 179." Technically it has to be on the floor and making chips for it to be depreciated under Section 179 for that fiscal year but I've been told that most places just say as long as the PO was issued that year, the accountants treat it as eligible. Not sure I'd want to tread that line.

  12. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Illinois
    Posts
    4,832
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3840
    Likes (Received)
    1565

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Yeah... so the servo that drives the trunnion cradle and the servo that drives c axis rotary have encoders on them but I don't think there is direct read head and ring encoders for the C and A axis around those respective bearings and axes - as a direct read system. The encoders are indirect for rotary positioning (I believe)*.

    I'll double check 'cuz it's not in the pdfs / quotes / brochures (the linear scales are) and seems to be source of confusion.

    Providing there's no backlash and excessive wear it's not a problem in all cases.

    * If the Genos m460V 5ax does have direct read ring-encoders around the A and C axes bearings that would be super super awesome.
    The MU400 has encoders on the a and c axis. Not talking about servo motor encoders. I asked when I was at the factory in Japan in 2013. Try to get the investment summarys. They have much more information than the brochures. The only question is whether the Genos version has them.

    My MB4000H has a dd encoder on the b axis. It uses a worm gear drive. Theres a special procedure to align the encoder using a maintenance program run on the control. It's actually really cool. Watched the tech do it on my machine when the b axis brake was replaced. They didn't have the interface cable from okuma when they put it together so we ran it with just the encoder on the servo for a few weeks.

    Yup we have the MU4000V. It's a very nice machine!

  13. Likes cameraman liked this post
  14. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Oregon
    Posts
    1,913
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    766
    Likes (Received)
    2268

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edster View Post
    The only question is whether the Genos version has them.
    When I inquired about this machine, I was told it does. From another thread about it, others have been told it has scales on the A and C axis as well.

    Mind you, the Haas UMC500 ($119k base price) and the UMC 1000 are Haas's 3rd gen 5 axis design and also come with scales on the rotary axes. One expects the UMC 750 will be getting refreshed here soon... it would be hard for Okuma to compete with a machine that costs at least $100k more than the Haas if they cheapened out on $5k worth of hardware.

    AFIK, the only "5 Axis" machine that doesn't have scales on the rotary is the Brother M series, but they are 4+1 machines anyhow... though I have my suspicions that this will be changing and Brother might be getting over their ITAR fears in the next few years.

  15. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,975
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3493
    Likes (Received)
    833

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    When I inquired about this machine, I was told it does. From another thread about it, others have been told it has scales on the A and C axis as well.

    Mind you, the Haas UMC500 ($119k base price) and the UMC 1000 are Haas's 3rd gen 5 axis design and also come with scales on the rotary axes. One expects the UMC 750 will be getting refreshed here soon... it would be hard for Okuma to compete with a machine that costs at least $100k more than the Haas if they cheapened out on $5k worth of hardware.

    AFIK, the only "5 Axis" machine that doesn't have scales on the rotary is the Brother M series, but they are 4+1 machines anyhow... though I have my suspicions that this will be changing and Brother might be getting over their ITAR fears in the next few years.
    "being told" ~ is part of the confusion.

    Because of the way things are phrased in the proposal summaries by Okuma. [lot of typos and cut and paste errors from the older MU brochures to concoct a slightly newer re-hacked brochure / detailed proposals for the Genos M-460V 5ax. ] might be worth checking out the German (Okuma Europe) new brochures as there is a fighting chance those might be more accurate descriptions lol.

    To be honest the rotary scales on the HAAS (like UMC 500) are not super high resolution but really nice they are there.

    I'm willing to say that it does not appear that the Genos 460V 5ax has direct reading rotary scales... I'll come to that in a mo.

    Initially the Genos M460V 5ax would be substantially more accurate (rotationally) than the Haas UMC 500.

    15 years from now the scales help a clapped out machine to sorta keep it's sh*t together

    $5 says the encoders are on the servos for the Genos 460V 5ax ~ would love to be proved wrong there. 'cuz that's a very big difference for an Okuma machine.

    Normally on the Genos line distinctions have to be made with the MB lines with (conventional 3 axis), so no fine pitch ball screws and no linear scales allowed on a Genos like an M560V BUT linear scales are on the Genos M460V 5ax.

  16. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Washington
    Posts
    4,721
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    855
    Likes (Received)
    2560

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    .....AFIK, the only "5 Axis" machine that doesn't have scales on the rotary is the Brother M series,......
    Don't know about current production, but Mazak Integrex V series of a few years ago only had scales on the rotary axes as an option. IME, one should never consider any 4 or 5 axis machine with out scales on the rotarys at least. Indexing type axes where curvic or Hirth couplings are used are not included in that statement.

  17. Likes cameraman, gkoenig liked this post
  18. #33
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,975
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3493
    Likes (Received)
    833

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edster View Post
    The MU400 has encoders on the a and c axis. Not talking about servo motor encoders. I asked when I was at the factory in Japan in 2013. Try to get the investment summarys. They have much more information than the brochures. The only question is whether the Genos version has them.

    My MB4000H has a dd encoder on the b axis. It uses a worm gear drive. Theres a special procedure to align the encoder using a maintenance program run on the control. It's actually really cool. Watched the tech do it on my machine when the b axis brake was replaced. They didn't have the interface cable from okuma when they put it together so we ran it with just the encoder on the servo for a few weeks.

    Yup we have the MU4000V. It's a very nice machine!
    That machine ^^^ The MU4000V is the dog's bollocks i.e. exceptional /exceptionally good. ( I know you have wondered whether you might have gotten the M-460V 5ax instead (if it was available at the time) but what you have is the real deal, I firmly believe once you managed to get over the hump with the rocket surgery you have been experiencing to get your Erowa system to jive with the MU4000V , that will put you squarely in a different league ~ Terrific forward looking investment. ).

    I have the investment summaries for sure... (Mu 400 II and Genos M-460V 5ax)

    I have no doubt in japan they can put rotary encoders on a MU A and C axis. (but I think MU 400V II is discontinued) .



    Attachment 273325

    >

    Attachment 273326


    Genos m460V 5ax ^^^^

    __________________________________________________ ____


    Attachment 273327

    >

    Attachment 273328


    MU 400V II machine

    __________________________________________________ ____


    Neither the MU nor Genos M460V 5 ax mentions anywhere in the detailed proposals (most detailed level of documentation they hand out for quoting) does it say anything about direct read ring encoders …

    It states everything else including absolute encoders on X, Y and Z axes.

    Within the drive chain of the C and A axes there are encoders … but not where one would ideally like then to be. 'cuz where the table and trunnion really is vs where it's been commanded to be are not one and the same (as you most assuredly know).


    __________________________________________________ ________________________________


    In my local area / region there's a bit of a cloud surrounding this and it's not clear how and why certain machines were sent back. Cited reason being discovering that a machine does not have direct read ring encoders … But a local sales person managed to flip that to make that a DMG mori problem ???? ~ It's kinda weird but needs a definitive answer from Okuma ~ I will attempt to get that but kinda need to be a bit more subtle !

    Whether the machine has ring encoders or not may not make that much difference to most applications . It could be that without ring encoders the machine contours on all axes in a more fluid way faster.

    I'm not clued into the explicit difference between the OSP-P300MA-H (control) versus OSP P300

    And "See separate Control Proposal" ?

  19. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,975
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3493
    Likes (Received)
    833

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    That machine ^^^ The MU4000V is the dog's bollocks i.e. exceptional /exceptionally good. ( I know you have wondered whether you might have gotten the M-460V 5ax instead (if it was available at the time) but what you have is the real deal, I firmly believe once you managed to get over the hump with the rocket surgery you have been experiencing to get your Erowa system to jive with the MU4000V , that will put you squarely in a different league ~ Terrific forward looking investment. ).

    I have the investment summaries for sure... (Mu 400 II and Genos M-460V 5ax)

    I have no doubt in japan they can put rotary encoders on a MU A and C axis. (but I think MU 400V II is discontinued) .



    Attachment 273325

    >

    Attachment 273326


    Genos m460V 5ax ^^^^

    __________________________________________________ ____


    Attachment 273327

    >

    Attachment 273328


    MU 400V II machine

    __________________________________________________ ____


    Neither the MU nor Genos M460V 5 ax mentions anywhere in the detailed proposals (most detailed level of documentation they hand out for quoting) does it say anything about direct read ring encoders …

    It states everything else including absolute encoders on X, Y and Z axes.

    Within the drive chain of the C and A axes there are encoders … but not where one would ideally like then to be. 'cuz where the table and trunnion really is vs where it's been commanded to be are not one and the same (as you most assuredly know).


    __________________________________________________ ________________________________


    In my local area / region there's a bit of a cloud surrounding this and it's not clear how and why certain machines were sent back. Cited reason being discovering that a machine does not have direct read ring encoders … But a local sales person managed to flip that to make that a DMG mori problem ???? ~ It's kinda weird but needs a definitive answer from Okuma ~ I will attempt to get that but kinda need to be a bit more subtle !

    Whether the machine has ring encoders or not may not make that much difference to most applications . It could be that without ring encoders the machine contours on all axes in a more fluid way faster.

    I'm not clued into the explicit difference between the OSP-P300MA-H (control) versus OSP P300

    And "See separate Control Proposal" ?
    Looks like my images got "redacted"... It's not sensitive technical information nor sensitive pricing information.

    lol.

    contact your local Okuma sales rep

    Happy Crimbo

    I think you can look at them once or something or they take a bit of time to lay up ???? No big deal they are all nice machines :-)

  20. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    7,630
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    440
    Likes (Received)
    3534

    Default

    Since Section 179 is integral to the advertising, a couple of points are important.

    Section 179 is only available to the extent you have a profit. Section 179 is unavailable to entities with a loss.

    Section 179 can be taken on any portion of the total purchase (or installed) price. The balance receives standard depreciation schedule for that class of equipment.

  21. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Illinois
    Posts
    4,832
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3840
    Likes (Received)
    1565

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    "being told" ~ is part of the confusion.

    Because of the way things are phrased in the proposal summaries by Okuma. [lot of typos and cut and paste errors from the older MU brochures to concoct a slightly newer re-hacked brochure / detailed proposals for the Genos M-460V 5ax. ] might be worth checking out the German (Okuma Europe) new brochures as there is a fighting chance those might be more accurate descriptions lol.

    To be honest the rotary scales on the HAAS (like UMC 500) are not super high resolution but really nice they are there.

    I'm willing to say that it does not appear that the Genos 460V 5ax has direct reading rotary scales... I'll come to that in a mo.

    Initially the Genos M460V 5ax would be substantially more accurate (rotationally) than the Haas UMC 500.

    15 years from now the scales help a clapped out machine to sorta keep it's sh*t together

    $5 says the encoders are on the servos for the Genos 460V 5ax ~ would love to be proved wrong there. 'cuz that's a very big difference for an Okuma machine.

    Normally on the Genos line distinctions have to be made with the MB lines with (conventional 3 axis), so no fine pitch ball screws and no linear scales allowed on a Genos like an M560V BUT linear scales are on the Genos M460V 5ax.
    They didn't list the encoders in the sales literature for the MU that's why I asked when I was in Japan. At the time I didn't know about the drive system.

    Just because okuma doesn't advertise the encoders doesn't mean there not on the machine. Do you see any sales literature that says the MB4000H has an encoder on the b axis. Doesn't matter if they dont list it it's there. Like they assume you know okuma does things right.

    What is the stated accuracy for the rotary axis on the Genos vs the MU4000V? I would look myself but I'm not at the shop. That should give you an idea if your wrong or not.

    IIRC the Variaxis J500 I had didn't have a rotary encoder on the A axis and it had a roller gear drive. I believe the C did but it was a direct drive motor and has one by default. So not all 5axis machines have encoders.

    Okuma purposefully doesn't list a lot of info in there brochures because they try to limit the info there competors can easily get. I'm sure thats sop for machine tool builders.

  22. Likes cameraman liked this post
  23. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Illinois
    Posts
    4,832
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3840
    Likes (Received)
    1565

    Default

    Video Brochure for M460V-5AX is online

    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman
    As Edster says scales on all axes, but specifically glass scales (and absolute scales) on XYZ and A and C. There are no compromises at all on that front I'm really glad they took that seriously (to have absolute scales on all axes linear and rotary).

    The one thing I like about Okuma is they use absolute encoders.

  24. Likes cameraman liked this post
  25. #38
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,975
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3493
    Likes (Received)
    833

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edster View Post
    well I kinda effed up there (back there)-(possibly)- from old cameraman post. As I had been looking at higher end machines.

    And that was a possibly a big assumption (on my part). As is the thrust of M460V 5ax might not actually have direct rotary scales …
    (indirect on the servo drive mechanisms for sure/ at very least.)


    The detailed quotes and proposals I have from Okuma America don't show direct rotary encoders … they do not list them. They list everything else.

    _________________________________


    It's a common mistake for "Encoders all axes " vs. "encoders all linear axes" vs "rotary encoders for rotary axes servos" vs direct read rotary (ring encoders).

  26. #39
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,975
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3493
    Likes (Received)
    833

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edster View Post
    What is the stated accuracy for the rotary axis on the Genos vs the MU4000V? I would look myself but I'm not at the shop. That should give you an idea if your wrong or not.

    IIRC the Variaxis J500 I had didn't have a rotary encoder on the A axis and it had a roller gear drive. I believe the C did but it was a direct drive motor and has one by default. So not all 5axis machines have encoders.
    I do have the accuracies and repeatability's for both Genos Vs MU4000V I can dig that up if you like.

    the MU 4000V that you have is virtually near / sub arc second in the neighborhood of …. That's why it's such an exceptional machine. Roughly speaking your machine is an order of magnitude more accurate (rotationally) than the M-460V 5ax and the M-460V 5ax is no slouch. The M-460V 5ax accuracy wise is in the neighborhood of +/- 4 arc seconds but possibly repeatability's +/- 2 arc seconds.

    I agree that it's not mandatory to have rotary direct scales on all axes but nice if you can have it . And yes I agree that not all 5 axis (even pretty good ones) have rotary scales all axes. It's more helpful for a machine as it gets older and "Zero backlash' is no longer "zero backlash" and you need to maintain very tight angular tolerances.


    What Okuma did was dumb down some of the stated rotational accuracies for the Genos m 460V 5ax so not to tread on the toes of the MU 400 V II, so they have cherry picked different values. In the detailed proposal data they have cut and paste certain things incorrectly from the MU 400V II to the Genos so there are actual conflicting specs in the same document.

    This becomes the difference between single value unidirectional small angle rotations Vs. bi-directional multiple rotations (accuracy).

    That's why I ask for rotational plots and ball bar plots for machines I'm serious about as that makes for a slightly more complete picture as to what's going on.
    1/2 of a picture at least versus cutting tests.

    I agree there is a layered approach to brochure vs deeper specs. I have had to sign various NDAs in the past.

    Not always easy to connect a critical "dot" from the USA to Japan so that was super cool that you took the factory tour.

    I'm not 100% sure that Okuma actually manufactures the Trunion for the M-460V 5ax. There is another company that specializes in that... I can dig that up also (time willing).

    __________________________________________________ ________________________________________________

    Matsuura MX-520 does have scales all axes (which is nice) rotary and linear. Different kind of machine.

    Even the new 5 axis universal from methods built by Litz / commissioned by methods has rotary scales (down to about 5 arc seconds but is a new kid on the block) , Heidenhain rotaries and linear.

    Usually these days If a machine has rotary scales they make a big deal out of it. (for 5 axis at least).

  27. #40
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    801
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    129
    Likes (Received)
    438

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gbent View Post
    Section 179 is only available to the extent you have a profit. Section 179 is unavailable to entities with a loss.
    This is not true; a disregarded entity that had additional income (sole proprietorship LLC type situation, for instance) can apply the business depreciation against other income. So if you are a sole proprietor startup and you or someone in the household (for instance a spouse with whom you joint file) made income you can apply all or part of the purchase under Section 179. Obviously it isn't a credit, so you are limited by the total income on the return.


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •