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  1. #41
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    Whatever, I didn't eff up. I just didn't remember until I reread my posts. The Genos 5ax machine came out right after I bought my MU4000V. I was upset that the dealer didn't let me know about it. It's smaller footprint, lower cost would have been ideal for my shop. So I did some investigating and had them quote it.

    When you say a rotary axis has an encoder, I don't think on the servo motor that drives it. I know the servo has an encoder for motion control.

    Like I said before okuma doesn't always list everything in there documentation.

    Think about this. Why would the genos 5ax have scales on the linear axis standard and not the rotary axis. Most 3ax mills don't need scales, theres virtually no backlash in the ballscrew drive system on the linear axis. The Genos 5ax has a hypiod gear drive system which I similar to a rear end in a car. There has to be some clearance (backlash) for that system to work. So your saying the rotary axis that actually need encoders dont have them and the linear axis that don't need scales has them. That doesn't make any sense to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    well I kinda effed up there (back there)-(possibly)- from old cameraman post. As I had been looking at higher end machines.

    And that was a possibly a big assumption (on my part). As is the thrust of M460V 5ax might not actually have direct rotary scales …
    (indirect on the servo drive mechanisms for sure/ at very least.)


    The detailed quotes and proposals I have from Okuma America don't show direct rotary encoders … they do not list them. They list everything else.

    _________________________________


    It's a common mistake for "Encoders all axes " vs. "encoders all linear axes" vs "rotary encoders for rotary axes servos" vs direct read rotary (ring encoders).

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Usually these days If a machine has rotary scales they make a big deal out of it. (for 5 axis at least).
    The thing is though, Haas (!) is putting rotary scales on a full 5 axis machine, and that includes tool center point and spindle/tool probes... for $120k.

    Now I get that Haas has always provided a solid value, but there comes a point where 5 axis machine sales guys are gonna need to to a lot of shucking and jiving to explain why their $130k higher base price doesn't include any of that.

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    The Genos rely on servo encoders on the linear axes, just like it's 3ax brothers. It has rotary scales on A/C. A is slightly divorced for packaging reasons, but still offers higher accuracy than a servo encoder. I'm sure folks here will know tolerance/error stack up on rotary axes compounds way faster than linear---this necessitates the scales.

    The hypiod drive I would bet is a variant not as common in automotive--here (i would suspect---speculation) the "ring gear" is dualy driven. This helps with backlash and longevity over time. It's an Okuma, its going to be accurate.

    The volumetric accuracy according to the auto-tune cycles on two late model machines I know of personally was about .0007-.0011 on the 460 and about .0003-.0005 on a MU4000. Obviously when you use a machine to qualify itself it sort of meaningless but these were both late model machines running the same auto-tune rev....ymmw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edster View Post
    Whatever, I didn't eff up. I just didn't remember until I reread my posts. The Genos 5ax machine came out right after I bought my MU4000V. I was upset that the dealer didn't let me know about it. It's smaller footprint, lower cost would have been ideal for my shop. So I did some investigating and had them quote it.

    <snipped for clarity for a mo>
    If you don't mind me asking are you still upset about that ?

    Do you feel that the dealer tried to upsell you on something that should not have been.

    So the Genos M460V 5ax is about $330K well optioned -ish whereas the MU4000V is in the neighborhood of about $600K ++++ : did they give you a break on the MU ?

    Just also wanna make sure you are not currently in a law suit with Okuma / or your vendor or are fixin to gain some leverage / legal pressure there .

    I'm pretty neutral and certainly appreciate your post / posts you have made sharing your progress with this forum 'cuz I know it's more hassle than IG ;-)

    If you don't mind me asking who is your vendor in your area * ?

    __________________________________________________ ____________________________________________


    * If I was in Chicago area things would be 20 X easier for us in terms of getting better handle on and with the machine tool industry in general , Colorado is kind of tidal pool at the furthest reaches of many MTBs "Empire".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edster View Post
    <snip for clarirty>

    Think about this. Why would the genos 5ax have scales on the linear axis standard and not the rotary axis. Most 3ax mills don't need scales, theres virtually no backlash in the ballscrew drive system on the linear axis. The Genos 5ax has a hypiod gear drive system which I similar to a rear end in a car. There has to be some clearance (backlash) for that system to work. So your saying the rotary axis that actually need encoders dont have them and the linear axis that don't need scales has them. That doesn't make any sense to me.
    That an excellent question / point.

    So in the detailed proposals (not superficial brochures),

    It says and I quote item # "20. Abso-scale, X-, Y-, Z-axis"

    ^^^ How is someone supposed to interpret that ?

    "scale" usually applies to a linear scale... Not a high res rotary encoder on the end of a ball-screw ?

    I guess if it does not have any linear direct read scales (like Heidenhain) nor direct reading rotary scales then how do you show pictures of something that is not there ? I guess that's why DMG MORI show pictures and videos of where the rotary and linear scales really are. Gratuitous slightly tossy graphics but at least you know they are an option or come as standard.


    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________


    If the Genos M460v 5ax had high resolution ring encoders or equivalent then theoretically it could position down to a few arc seconds accuracy... That would tread on the toes of a machine like the MU 5000V. The MU machines especially the full dual column ones you can literarily build miniaturized "Nukes" on those [I think of those as Government level machines that live at places like Sandia National Laboratory and Los Alamos (New Mexico)]. So export licenses become more involved for machines that can position to one or two arc seconds. Some of the German high end machines kinda dumb down the tolerances (on paper) so that there is not a lot of paperwork + export / import to the USA. Not entirely sure that having rotary ring type direct read encoders would necessarily be advantageous to "Genos" Idea.

    I'm happy that Okuma made an effort to bridge the gap between their Genos lines and their super high end machines as the difference to get to 5 axis on Okuma is like scaling a cliff face (price wise) forcing one to consider switching brands.


    __________________________________

    I'm a real fan of the (Okuma) MB-46 V (fine pitch ball screws and scales) But you can't ask for fine pitch ball screws and linear scales to be put on a Genos M460 V (regular 3 axis machine) "Verboten !". There's a huge price difference and Okuma tries to make out you don't need MB machines anymore / unnecessary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tts197 View Post
    The Genos rely on servo encoders on the linear axes, just like it's 3ax brothers. It has rotary scales on A/C. A is slightly divorced for packaging reasons, but still offers higher accuracy than a servo encoder. I'm sure folks here will know tolerance/error stack up on rotary axes compounds way faster than linear---this necessitates the scales.

    The hypiod drive I would bet is a variant not as common in automotive--here (i would suspect---speculation) the "ring gear" is dualy driven. This helps with backlash and longevity over time. It's an Okuma, its going to be accurate.

    The volumetric accuracy according to the auto-tune cycles on two late model machines I know of personally was about .0007-.0011 on the 460 and about .0003-.0005 on a MU4000. Obviously when you use a machine to qualify itself it sort of meaningless but these were both late model machines running the same auto-tune rev....ymmw.
    Thanks for chiming in with this... (appreciate it).

    If I lived next to the Okuma aerospace center for excellence in NC things would be so much easier !

    I agree the M-460V 5ax should be very accurate especially with more hands on work, so you can artfully compensate for this and that.

    The real challenge for high tolerance work is automation, like a robot arm with an Erowa pallet system. I think for 5 axis automated work (minimum operator / machinist input) is the most demanding and requires accuracies and thermal control that is an order magnitude "Tighter" than a more hands on cell with gauging and probing.

    Of course there's in process probing (automated ) which is another ball of wax ~ Outside of my sandpit at the moment.

    That's interesting that about the volumetric accuracies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    The thing is though, Haas (!) is putting rotary scales on a full 5 axis machine, and that includes tool center point and spindle/tool probes... for $120k.

    Now I get that Haas has always provided a solid value, but there comes a point where 5 axis machine sales guys are gonna need to to a lot of shucking and jiving to explain why their $130k higher base price doesn't include any of that.
    I agree it's not easy …

    For example in our work we build instruments that are graded according to angular accuracies and precisions.

    So for our more rugged and dumbed down versions we build and integrate with 20 arc second ring encoders (Renishaw)…

    10 arc second instrument... Not bad,

    5 arc second instrument … much more serious.

    1 to two arc seconds … top drawer (as good as anything Zeiss or Leica Geosystems builds.).

    We have test instruments autocollimators and reference optical polygons etc. that are sub arc second.

    Difficult for a sales person to say that HAAS with a lower resolution ring encoder of the order of ten to 20 arc seconds (maybe) is not as good as a Genos M-460V 5ax that has no direct reading scales or direct reading ring encoders ?

    So that's when the sales people get "creative"...

    " Ohhh but the HAAS UMC 500 needs those rotary scales to hold itself together... whereas the Gneos M 460V 5ax is so well built it does not need such a crutch and it's thermal management, rigidity and build quality are faaaaaar superior … " Kind of thing.

    With Mazak scales etc. pertain to part to part accuracy CpKs) versus individual part accuracy , but a lot of the MAZAK machines are not designed to last for ever, there are a few short cuts and lower prices that work well for business (in some cases) -partially implied disposability that is "Cost effective" over a machine that is designed to last twice as long but costs much more. It's still very cool that folks do well with some older MAZAK turning centers etc.

    I think that folks that really dig Okuma really dig Okuma, so the Genos M560V 5ax really helps to bridge that gap between really top $ MUs and the Genos lines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    I think that folks that really dig Okuma really dig Okuma, so the Genos M560V 5ax really helps to bridge that gap between really top $ MUs and the Genos lines.
    Question: Why does a Genos 5ax matter? If you are doing work that needs 1 arc second precision, nothing with the Genos, Mazak, Matsura, level names are ever gonna do it for you. Makino or Okuma (on the very high end), Hermle (optioned properly), Mikron (perhaps, lots of stories), DMG (with hesitation), Roku Roku, Yasda, Kern. You are shopping at the top of the heap of machine tools... and you are doing so with contracts that are above the local dealer's pay grade and onto the MTB that they will be able to meet accuracy specs. We're probably even talking test artifacts, cut on both a demo machine before the PO is signed and as part of a post instillation run-off before a pen gets within 10 feet of the acceptance paperwork.

    Which gets very expensive, but who cares? Parts made to microns and arc seconds command such a huge premium, that paying 2x for a machine tool is easy money to spend.

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  13. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Question: Why does a Genos 5ax matter? If you are doing work that needs 1 arc second precision, nothing with the Genos, Mazak, Matsura, level names are ever gonna do it for you. Makino or Okuma (on the very high end), Hermle (optioned properly), Mikron (perhaps, lots of stories), DMG (with hesitation), Roku Roku, Yasda, Kern. You are shopping at the top of the heap of machine tools... and you are doing so with contracts that are above the local dealer's pay grade and onto the MTB that they will be able to meet accuracy specs. We're probably even talking test artifacts, cut on both a demo machine before the PO is signed and as part of a post instillation run-off before a pen gets within 10 feet of the acceptance paperwork.

    Which gets very expensive, but who cares? Parts made to microns and arc seconds command such a huge premium, that paying 2x for a machine tool is easy money to spend.
    Excellent question... :-)

    The tool makers here know the answer to that.

    What we have had to do 'cuz I don't have a zillion dollars is work the applications backwards from our highest tolerances. + design in adjustments judiciously + calibration strategies.

    So process chains like lapping and honing, jig grinding and wire EDM etc. Jig grinding with tilted spin fixtures and precision indexers. + conventional surface grinding. + change of materials and core processes.

    Without giving too much away and derail the thread... We have had to adopt a system of reference masters and what we at least call 'Setting jigs" . So we have what we call "nominal angles" for things but are really down to very high repeatabilities and high precisions but are unique to the in house reference masters. So precision optical tooling and assemblies we build references to those set of masters and those instruments are then "set" and calibrated and adjusted using optical equipment like autocollimators. How we do that is part of our secret sauce but is not 100% unique to planet Earth by any means.

    So to answer your question if you work backwards from your/ our highest tolerances using these kinds of technique then you don't need a super high accuracy CNC that cuts in conventional non-abrasive ways. [There are basic problems with heat and conventional cutting strategies that introduce various stresses into materials as well as issues of stress relief /released stresses that induce warping + general geometric issues with tool wear and accuracies of tooling.].

    But we have other assemblies, positioners and housings etc. that don't need super high accuracies (just nice-ish surface finishes and ability to handle difficult materials well). So Genos M460V 5ax could be quite handy.

    A super high accurate machine would help substantially cut down on a lot of those kinds of processes but not completely eliminate them. We can potentially hack 3 axis Hermles for what we need optically or build something special for our needs as Okuma, Mazak, etc. don't build what we really need.

    There are other classes of machines* that are used in machining of assemblies while optically aligned in process to sub arc second and sub micron level precision. .

    Might dig up a link for that in mo (also don't want to get sued by our suppliers AND development partners (business is fun … :-/ ). , but don't want to hijack the thread but a HAAS UMC 500 could be handy also for more generic things. I don't build "Nukes" or parts for inertial guidance systems.

    The other aspect with a really well built machine (with scales) is that you can become less reliant / dependent on in-house reference masters (for your own products). So the machine can be relied upon for a decade or more.



    __________________________________________________ _________________________________________



    ^^^^ With the hands on methods for high tolerance work means you have to train people in specialized methods, and you have a lot of seemingly archaic machines , in other words slow processes , labor intensive and essentially lower capacity as compared to an extremely accurate and highly automated methods like what Edster is using with his Okuma MU 5 axis machine . The machine tool industry encourages people to adopt production strategies where rapid scaling might be possible. It's not for everyone especially if you're on that treadmill trying to make machine payments.

    __________________________________________________ _________________________________________


    * http://trioptics-usa.com/wp-content/...chure_engl.pdf

    ^^^ scroll down to ATS 400 , that kind of approach

    YouTube

    ^^^ More dainty version of the same idea, uses air bearing , hydrostatic spindles etc. + granite. (gross simplification of what's going on in the video but the general concept is valid.).

    Don't want to spam up the joint but there are different ways to skin these cats... Just production "Times" being the major difference / factor. + capacity and notion of scaling 'cuz growth is still part of the quasi capitalist notion of modern business globally.
    Last edited by cameraman; 12-27-2019 at 11:17 AM.

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  15. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    If you don't mind me asking are you still upset about that ?

    Do you feel that the dealer tried to upsell you on something that should not have been.

    So the Genos M460V 5ax is about $330K well optioned -ish whereas the MU4000V is in the neighborhood of about $600K ++++ : did they give you a break on the MU ?

    Just also wanna make sure you are not currently in a law suit with Okuma / or your vendor or are fixin to gain some leverage / legal pressure there .

    I'm pretty neutral and certainly appreciate your post / posts you have made sharing your progress with this forum 'cuz I know it's more hassle than IG ;-)

    If you don't mind me asking who is your vendor in your area * ?

    __________________________________________________ ____________________________________________


    * If I was in Chicago area things would be 20 X easier for us in terms of getting better handle on and with the machine tool industry in general , Colorado is kind of tidal pool at the furthest reaches of many MTBs "Empire".
    No, I'm happy with my MU4000V. The Genos 5ax would have done the job in a smaller package but I wouldn't have been able to add the robot. But the robot turned out to be a PITA so I might have been better off with 2 Genos 5ax machines.

    I'm more upset that I mentioned to my salesman they needed a genos 5ax before they released it, and that the old MU400 would be perfect for my shop because of it's size. Then a very short time after I bought my machine they released the genos version. I'm pretty sure they knew about it but didn't tell me. But it doesn't matter because I have a bigger shop now, lol. Also I have a nicer machine.

    Mine was a demo and I pretty much stole it from them. The only option I wish I could have got was the concept 2000 chip conveyor. But the machine already had a hinge belt on the floor and they couldn't exchange it.

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