Older Haas value after NGC upgrade

Matt@RFR · Dec 9, 2021

As most of you probably know, on 2008 and older Haas machines, if a certain electronics board fails, Haas will require a roughly $20,000 "upgrade" to their new control to "fix" the bad board. The alternative is that the machine becomes a boat anchor and off to the scrap yard it goes.

My question is if anyone has seen one of these converted machines on the used market, and how their value compares to a similar age machine that has not been retrofitted.

D Nelson · Dec 9, 2021

Surely there is someone repairing those older boards?if not that might be a good gig to get into
Don

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Antarctica · Dec 9, 2021

Not to derail the thread, but when Haas does an 'upgrade', do they take the old board back in exchange for the new Mobo?

mkd · Dec 9, 2021

i wanna put a Heidenhain on my 2002 VF-3

for $20K haas charge, might as well go big.

Milland · Dec 9, 2021

Antarctica said:
Not to derail the thread, but when Haas does an 'upgrade', do they take the old board back in exchange for the new Mobo?

Given their policy of trying to keep parts off the market, I'd have to say "Yes".

To the OP - I doubt anyone's made back their money on the $20K "upgrade" (I like the old Haas control) in resale, the only reason to do it is that the machine is in good shape otherwise and you have work for it. Then it might make sense, when compared to moving the old machine out, getting a new one in, etc.

To post #2, yes, there's companies doing repairs of most Haas boards or amplifiers, but I don't know if anyone's gotten to reloading proprietary software. I suspect Haas would be on them ASAP if they got wind of that.

Now, some states are starting to pay attention to "Right To Repair", and that might shake things up a bit if it begins to broadly get legislative passage.

Garwood · Dec 9, 2021

I doubt it would raise the value any at all. The machine is still the same age.

I had a VF0 that had the CRT burn out so Haas replaced the entire console with a new LCD one. Made the machine look a decade newer, but didn't change the value at all.

Turbo442 · Dec 10, 2021

Matt@RFR said:
As most of you probably know, on 2008 and older Haas machines, if a certain electronics board fails, Haas will require a roughly $20,000 "upgrade" to their new control to "fix" the bad board. The alternative is that the machine becomes a boat anchor and off to the scrap yard it goes.

My question is if anyone has seen one of these converted machines on the used market, and how their value compares to a similar age machine that has not been retrofitted.

I have done the upgrade on a 2004 VF2. The original hardware on my machine was referred to as Coldfire I and had the smaller color LCD but it can upgrade the older machines as well with the monochrome display (with more work I believe the vector drive needs to be also replaced). FYI the upgrade does NOT include the NGC software / hardware. It will bring the machine up to or very close to the last version of Coldfire II classic control with USB functionality. I have had zero issues with my machine since the upgrade. All software and hardware options work correctly. I run probing and a HRT160 with no issues. It also came with the newer style remote jog handle. I paid something like $7000 for my upgrade if I recall including hardware and 6 hours of labor and 2 hours of travel. Haas increased the price after my upgrade. HFO is suppose to take back the pendant / lcd / remote jog handle and the processor/video boards. I’m not sure about value after the upgrade. I know when I look at a used machine personally I won’t touch it unless it has Coldfire II. Also one last thing. Yes 2008~2014 should include most Coldfire II classic controls but you will find exceptions. Most machines built in 2007 were coldfire II and some lathes in 15 / 16 as well.

Milland · Dec 10, 2021

Turbo442 said:
I paid something like $7000 for my upgrade if I recall including hardware and 6 hours of labor and 2 hours of travel. Haas increased the price after my upgrade.

It's that particular slap in the face (the massive price increase) that makes me doubt I'll buy more Haas machines. It'll likely be Doosan next.

70olds · Dec 10, 2021

barbter said:
Well... you either scrap the machine when it's assumed it's mechanically sound because you're making good parts and you know the full history.
Or put 20k into it, and keep your machine that now has an updated control.

You could scrap your machine and go buy something else with the 20k, but what will you get?

And I guess it has to be worth a "bit more" with an updated control (+8k?) - it certainly has to be a lot more appealing to anyone who is looking to buy the same machine of that era, because yours is now supported....

I agree that a VF2 with the upgrade is worth more than one without it, but I think a HAAS VF2 from 2004 is worth X amount regardless. If the market price is 30K I think this would only drive DOWN the price of the ones that don't have it by comparison, moreso than driving up the ones that do compared to the rest of the non-HAAS market. At the end of the day, the machine is still no more accurate, fast or "good" than a 2004 HAAS VF2 that's running original equipment. At least this is how I would look at it. One just is what it is, the other is a ticking timebomb.

Garwood · Dec 10, 2021

Is there seriously no aftermarket support for the older Haas controls?

I know information availability for fixing the older Haas stuff is very poor compared to other makes. I would think somebody's doing it?

Matt@RFR · Dec 10, 2021

Turbo442 said:
I have done the upgrade on a 2004 VF2. The original hardware on my machine was referred to as Coldfire I and had the smaller color LCD but it can upgrade the older machines as well with the monochrome display (with more work I believe the vector drive needs to be also replaced). FYI the upgrade does NOT include the NGC software / hardware. It will bring the machine up to or very close to the last version of Coldfire II classic control with USB functionality. I have had zero issues with my machine since the upgrade. All software and hardware options work correctly. I run probing and a HRT160 with no issues. It also came with the newer style remote jog handle. I paid something like $7000 for my upgrade if I recall including hardware and 6 hours of labor and 2 hours of travel. Haas increased the price after my upgrade. HFO is suppose to take back the pendant / lcd / remote jog handle and the processor/video boards. I’m not sure about value after the upgrade. I know when I look at a used machine personally I won’t touch it unless it has Coldfire II. Also one last thing. Yes 2008~2014 should include most Coldfire II classic controls but you will find exceptions. Most machines built in 2007 were coldfire II and some lathes in 15 / 16 as well.

Thanks for sharing your experience. When did you have the upgrade done? As noted by Milland, things seem to have changed quite a lot since you had yours done, to include reliability issues after the retrofit.

Milland said:
It's that particular slap in the face (the massive price increase) that makes me doubt I'll buy more Haas machines. It'll likely be Doosan next.

Yep, plus they aren't that much cheaper, if at all, to a lot of other machines, they changed the control which I think was incredibly stupid, and support is junk now. The last few service calls I've had from Selway have been awful. I've been done with Haas for a long time. Brother all the way for the stuff we make. But unfortunately we don't have the work to justify another $2k payment to replace this Haas with another Brother. As much as I would like to.

Garwood said:
Is there seriously no aftermarket support for the older Haas controls?

I know information availability for fixing the older Haas stuff is very poor compared to other makes. I would think somebody's doing it?

From what I've read, if you do component-level repairs on these boards yourself, somehow the control doesn't recognize the new parts or fails to initialize because of the new parts. Then Haas' techs will not reinitialize the control because the repairs were not done by Haas or a Haas tech, which just leaves you with a broken machine again until you do this giant 'upgrade'. I know jack shit about electronics, but I think you get the gist.

Garwood · Dec 10, 2021

Matt@RFR said:
From what I've read, if you do component-level repairs on these boards yourself, somehow the control doesn't recognize the new parts or fails to initialize because of the new parts. Then Haas' techs will not reinitialize the control because the repairs were not done by Haas or a Haas tech, which just leaves you with a broken machine again until you do this giant 'upgrade'. I know jack shit about electronics, but I think you get the gist.

Sounds like a case of Haas being douchey to me.

Speedie · Dec 11, 2021

I think it would raise the price a little. There is no NGC upgrade only last gen update to bring it to 2015 standards

Matt@RFR · Dec 11, 2021

Speedie said:
I think it would raise the price a little. There is no NGC upgrade only last gen update to bring it to 2015 standards

Thanks for the correction. That makes it slightly less horrible at least.

RC Mech · Dec 11, 2021

In the same vein, I have an opportunity to grab a 1998 HL 2 that has about 20 alarms for the cost of trucking. What is the failure mode of the control that requires the upgrade?

Battery probably died and it lost parameters. If the control may need upgrading it makes this decision very easy.

Orange Vise · Dec 11, 2021

Garwood said:
I doubt it would raise the value any at all. The machine is still the same age.

I had a VF0 that had the CRT burn out so Haas replaced the entire console with a new LCD one. Made the machine look a decade newer, but didn't change the value at all.

It could help as a tiebreaker between two otherwise identical machines, but sounds about right that it wouldn't add much value. Same deal with options.

The control replacement might make sense on the bigger machines, like a VF12, but not so much with something like a VF2. You'd probably be money ahead selling the old machine to get a sizable downpayment, buying a new machine, taking the Section 179 and also writing off the interest on the monthly payments.

Milland · Dec 11, 2021

RC Mech said:
In the same vein, I have an opportunity to grab a 1998 HL 2 that has about 20 alarms for the cost of trucking. What is the failure mode of the control that requires the upgrade?

Battery probably died and it lost parameters. If the control may need upgrading it makes this decision very easy.

If it's in good mechanical shape, I'd get a Haas tech to take a look at it. It may just need the battery replaced and parameters reloaded. If the tech doesn't have to fly out that should be under a day's billing, which would be acceptable to me for a (now) working machine.

wheelieking71 · Dec 11, 2021

Sending you an email Matt....................

DouglasJRizzo · Dec 12, 2021

The way I look at it, if the machine is still making money and good parts, let it. The NGC may enhance the operation, and certainly that's better for you, and it may be able to do some things the other control either couldn't or not without difficulty. Still better for you. When it comes to CNCs resale value doesn't factor in for me. My newest CNC is 1995, and the others are 1983, '85, and '86. Still cookin'.

eaglemike · Dec 13, 2021

DouglasJRizzo said:
The way I look at it, if the machine is still making money and good parts, let it. The NGC may enhance the operation, and certainly that's better for you, and it may be able to do some things the other control either couldn't or not without difficulty. Still better for you. When it comes to CNCs resale value doesn't factor in for me. My newest CNC is 1995, and the others are 1983, '85, and '86. Still cookin'.

As noted above, you don't get NGC. Some of us consider this a good thing. One would get the version started in 2007, and ending maybe 15/16.
When they doubled the price on the upgrade, that was it for me. I'd had experience with increasing prices for parts and service, and some of the new guys were less than great at accurately diagnosing and fixing, requiring 3 trips a few times. It was too bad, I loved my old VF-2 (1998 model). I didn't want to come in some morning, realize I needed to make a phone call, then stress until it was up again - and still have an older machine, worth about what I just paid for the upgrade. Stuff never ever breaks at a good time either.
I started buying Brother with a 450 demo machine. Life had been less stressful and more productive.
Matt, I wish you luck whichever decision you make. If you go with the upgrade, it'll still be a decent machine.

Older Haas value after NGC upgrade

Titanium

Stainless

Hot Rolled

Stainless

Diamond

Diamond

Aluminum

Diamond

Aluminum

Diamond

Titanium

Diamond

Stainless

Titanium

Stainless

Titanium

Diamond

Diamond

Titanium

Stainless

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