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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post
    I'd be concerned about the power required to run a horizontal, unless a bigger building and real 3ph is on the shopping list.
    I'd also be extra worried about how fast that work dried up last year. This is a time to be putting in the hours and piling the cash, 7 days a week.
    Work on your game plan for if it holds, but be very careful. Making chips is the easy part.
    If a horizontal comes in here, two machines leave. Yea Doosan says that is an 80KVA machine (200amps). Maybe at what? 200% spindle load in tough material?
    Haas says a VFss is an 80 amp machine. Mine are all on 30amp fuses that have never blown. I am aware of and concerned with the power situation.
    But, not really "worried" about it.

    As for the work. It didn't really "dry up". We just got waaaaay ahead on inventory. Sales did slow in 2019, sure. But, they never stopped.
    He is wishing now that he would have started me back up a whole lot earlier than he did.
    As we are back ordered almost as far right now. As we were ahead when he shut me down.

    It is a calculated risk for sure. With no guarantees! But, let me put it this way:
    I could pay for the Doosan in 8 weeks if I can double what I am doing now, with it. And, I out all revenue towards it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    This right here ^^^^^^. I think it would be far more pleasant feeding a pallet-pool vs. 4 hungry Brothers.



    My plan would be the same as the plan in my other current thread. Double station vises on 4 sided tombstones.
    OP-1 would be raw stock clamped with Pitbulls on top of the move jaws. OP-2 clamped in the vises normally.
    This would get me 8 OP-1, and 8 OP-2 parts per stone. Effectively 8 finished parts.

    One beautiful aspect of this for me. I already have the vises. All the jaws already exist.
    Just need to buy 4 stones. Bolt it all together. Set origins, and go! (I realize it will not be anywhere near that simple, but ya'll get the point).
    My problem with saying anything is, I have a stake in this. You know me, less parts on more Brothers makes more sense to me, as long as they are set up right. Auto-doors, decent conveyors and let someone dance between machines. The HMC still has to be loaded but it has the advantage of night running. If you are organized, as you are, you can get a lot of parts off the Brothers. You can ramp up and buy one, get it making parts, then buy the next and so on. We should meet this week. On the Vise side, Schunk if you want to spend the money.

    Things I would consider:

    Commitment from the customer.
    Power and space requirements.
    Would five sided help the process. You can do the pallet pool plausibly.

    See you soon.

    Andy

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    Can you make it in a live tool lathe? We took a high volume part off the mills and into the live tool lathe and let it run 3 shifts with a bar feeder.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
    I wish! I have been thinking about this for years.
    I even have a thread floating around here somewhere wondering why you never see a bar-feeder on a multi-tasker.

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    Might consider it some how. We have 13 live tools and a part off tool for this one part. It spends the entire cycle milling not lathing.

    I bought a used dmg nlx with sub spindle for $140,000 and with 15hp live tools, it rips through 4140.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    My problem with saying anything is, I have a stake in this. You know me, less parts on more Brothers makes more sense to me, as long as they are set up right. Auto-doors, decent conveyors and let someone dance between machines. The HMC still has to be loaded but it has the advantage of night running. If you are organized, as you are, you can get a lot of parts off the Brothers. You can ramp up and buy one, get it making parts, then buy the next and so on. We should meet this week. On the Vise side, Schunk if you want to spend the money.

    Things I would consider:

    Commitment from the customer.
    Power and space requirements.
    Would five sided help the process. You can do the pallet pool plausibly.

    See you soon.

    Andy
    Unfortunately, that someone is ME! And, I'm kinda tired of it. Joe is doing it for one shift. And, doing it well. But, he wont do it forever.
    He came here to learn. And, learn he is. I'm glad he is very mature and realistic. He knows he has to take the bad with the good, and he does.
    But, I don't think he wants to be permanent production jockey (matter of fact I know he doesn't).
    Nor do I. And, I'm not willing to make Allison do it at that level full-time. I had a kid in here that was starting to do pretty good.
    But, he quit last week (matter of fact he was just here 10 mins ago getting his last check).
    The common theme to all this is: I can't get help in here. I hate employees anyways! And, I am the operator.
    I'm not gonna tend 4 Brothers with my hair on fire. I would rather work a double feeding a horizontal leisurely, than a single feeding the Brothers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    Unfortunately, that someone is ME! And, I'm kinda tired of it. Joe is doing it for one shift. And, doing it well. But, he wont do it forever.
    He came here to learn. And, learn he is. I'm glad he is very mature and realistic. He knows he has to take the bad with the good, and he does.
    But, I don't think he wants to be permanent production jockey (matter of fact I know he doesn't).
    Nor do I. And, I'm not willing to make Allison do it at that level full-time. I had a kid in here that was starting to do pretty good.
    But, he quit last week (matter of fact he was just here 10 mins ago getting his last check).
    The common theme to all this is: I can't get help in here. I hate employees anyways! And, I am the operator.
    I'm not gonna tend 4 Brothers with my hair on fire. I would rather work a double feeding a horizontal leisurely, than a single feeding the Brothers.
    Sounds like you made your choice then. Horizontal it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    Unfortunately, that someone is ME! And, I'm kinda tired of it.

    I would rather work a double feeding a horizontal leisurely, than a single feeding the Brothers.
    Unless you have robot feeding the machine, you will be always loading the machines for the same amount of time, whether that is horizontals or Brothers. Advantage with horizontal is that you can batch group these loading tasks and instead of running between machines all day long do it all in one or two shots and then rest. But, the actual time you spend loading parts will be about the same, just distributed differently.

    Robot loading is the answer so you can sleep and machine can make money, but I can tell you that it takes lot of time to perfect this process and once you do it you don't want to change over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    I think you need to reconsider the Flex 2 cell.

    The problems of robots are well documented and have lots of solutions. On our automation setups, we have fixed air lines on a solenoid valve that blast the workholding pockets out during the robot load. We also have part-presence detection that uses air pressure to make sure the part is seated in the vise. Deploy those two tricks and a little tool-break detection and straightforward 3 axis work is quite very reliable. Yamazen can implement both as part of the package (a few hundred bucks in total).

    As to the accuracy issue? That is a matter of workholding design where we have a bunch of tricks to throw at the problem. In your case, we're talking a pair of Schunk air vises with hardened tops that you can send out for a little WEDM work. Allan or Scott at Yamazen can get you dialed in, and I have a guy I work with who could have this solved for you with a couple of hours of CAD work - he has set up dozens of parts in this sorta configuration. The stuff you are working on is pretty easy to automate - easy to grip, easy to hold.

    Once you go Flex 2? You're going to ditch the R650/Haas setup for the other SKU in short order. You are looking at *hours* of unattended production, with extremely high reliability, way less workholding to manage, and the problems are all ones that have been solved before and you have lots of resources to pull to get it up and running. Oh, and all at about the same price as an optioned horizontal, spitting out 2x the parts, and with your only interaction being "Lay blanks on conveyor, pick up blanks from other conveyor."
    I would love to agree with you Greg! And, if this was just one part? I would really be inclined to do so.
    But, its not. It is 4 separate parts x 1000/ea/wk. Two of the stock blanks I don't think the robot could load.
    There is a 1" hole in the stock that fits quite snugly on a 1" expanding mandrel, that has to be clocked precisely.
    Sometimes it is a pain in the ass for a human to do it! I cant even fathom all the errors I would get from a robot.
    Everybody is quick to say robot. But, only Andy has seen the stock. It is a royal pain in the ass. For many reasons.
    You have to put it on the mandrel. Then clamp the opposite end (while it can still spin on the mandrel). Then tighten the mandrel.
    There is a spine between the two clamps that is quite thin. If you do this clamping sequence out of order, it deforms this spine.
    Then you machine the part. It will be a fine part! In tolerance in every way. Until you un-clamp it. And it deforms back to its natural state rendering it junk.
    Then you machine OP2. Same thing. Clamp the part. The jaws deform the part to the proper shape, you machine it, it looks fantastic!
    Then you un-clamp it, and it springs back to its natural shape. You make a couple thousand like this. Ship them. Everybody is happy as can be.
    Then all of a sudden, parts are not fitting correctly! WTF is going on? Everything measures good. Two days go by with everybody scratching their heads.
    Finally the dummy machinist takes one of the old parts (made from solid bar), and one of the bad parts (made from the new custom extrusion)
    to a buddy of his with a CMM. And they plot both parts.
    Pretty sure you can figure the rest out. It took me a long time to figure out how to hold this shit. And, I don't think it is robot friendly at all.
    There is also another 100,000 pcs of this material coming minimum. So, it isn't going away any time soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dandrummerman21 View Post
    Just make sure your machine can index to where you can load it if you get more than 4 sides.

    We almost bought a 6 sided tombstone until I mocked up how awkward it would be to load on our machine with only 4 pallet "stations".

    I drilled 4 extra holes in mine to get to 8 sided stones.


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  14. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffeetek View Post
    Unless you have robot feeding the machine, you will be always loading the machines for the same amount of time, whether that is horizontals or Brothers. Advantage with horizontal is that you can batch group these loading tasks and instead of running between machines all day long do it all in one or two shots and then rest. But, the actual time you spend loading parts will be about the same, just distributed differently.

    Robot loading is the answer so you can sleep and machine can make money, but I can tell you that it takes lot of time to perfect this process and once you do it you don't want to change over.
    Exactly why I said the robot would have to feed 4 different machines each running A/B OPs of all 4 parts!
    Probably two robots, because I don't think one would be able to keep up (actually I know it wouldn't).
    At this stage we are in FAR deeper $$$$$$$$ than a horizontal! Even if i had to buy the 20 dual station vises I already have.
    And, personally, I don't think it would be any faster.

    Also, point blank: I do not have the time to get a robot cell up & running. Period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    Unfortunately, that someone is ME! And, I'm kinda tired of it. Joe is doing it for one shift. And, doing it well. But, he wont do it forever.
    He came here to learn. And, learn he is. I'm glad he is very mature and realistic. He knows he has to take the bad with the good, and he does.
    But, I don't think he wants to be permanent production jockey (matter of fact I know he doesn't).
    Nor do I. And, I'm not willing to make Allison do it at that level full-time. I had a kid in here that was starting to do pretty good.
    But, he quit last week (matter of fact he was just here 10 mins ago getting his last check).
    The common theme to all this is: I can't get help in here. I hate employees anyways! And, I am the operator.
    I'm not gonna tend 4 Brothers with my hair on fire. I would rather work a double feeding a horizontal leisurely, than a single feeding the Brothers.
    I think I have an answer.

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    You are not running 24/5 and not able to do 24/7?
    8760 machine production hours in a year. How many are you using?
    Adding machines means the same people problems as you need staff here also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    I think I have an answer.
    Just don't forget to read post# 48. You have seen this stock Andy.

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    After reading all this - I am still as to the benefits of the HMC?
    Other than of course the chip evac issue...

    If it takes someone to be humping to keep up with 4 Brothers, why would they not need to be humping to keep up with 2 or 3 Hor's?

    You are talking the same number of parts/day, so where did the time savings come in at?

    If you need to hump to keep up now, then I don't see any "lights out" advantage at all?

    OK, so you load up forty-leven parts and head in.
    And maybe it will run for an hour (?) on it's own?
    (A new one will shut down with an M code - won't it?)

    But then when you come in _ in the morning, now you have to load a whole stone before you can push GO.
    What did you save?

    This HMC with forty-leven stones is great for 3rd shift - on parts that have long cycles and short load times.
    But the closer that cycle time and load time is - then less and less "unattended" value is there.


    I just haven't followed where you are going to replace 2 spindles with one and save anything?
    But of course - I haven't witnessed your gig either...


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    Ox

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    I'm sure that any ineficiencies in toolchange or rapids will be more than made up in hitting several parts between toolchanges.


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    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    Just don't forget to read post# 48. You have seen this stock Andy.
    I know but can't remember exact size. Sent you an email.

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    One other thing that I considered on H / V is that while an H lets chips fall away, a V lets gravity help to hold your part while you tighten or whatever.

    Changing the same part on an H could take another hand to hold down?

    May or may not apply in your case...


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    After reading all this - I am still as to the benefits of the HMC?
    Other than of course the chip evac issue...

    If it takes someone to be humping to keep up with 4 Brothers, why would they not need to be humping to keep up with 2 or 3 Hor's?

    You are talking the same number of parts/day, so where did the time savings come in at?

    If you need to hump to keep up now, then I don't see any "lights out" advantage at all?

    OK, so you load up forty-leven parts and head in.
    And maybe it will run for an hour (?) on it's own?
    (A new one will shut down with an M code - won't it?)

    But then when you come in _ in the morning, now you have to load a whole stone before you can push GO.
    What did you save?

    This HMC with forty-leven stones is great for 3rd shift - on parts that have long cycles and short load times.
    But the closer that cycle time and load time is - then less and less "unattended" value is there.


    I just haven't followed where you are going to replace 2 spindles with one and save anything?
    But of course - I haven't witnessed your gig either...


    ------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    No doubt in my mind, 4 Brother set up on these parts (one of the 4 needed parts in each machine) would absolutely run circles around a horizontal.
    Time - for - time. In one 8 hour shift, the Brothers would probably triple one horizontal (WAG).
    But, I can not keep that pace forever. Joe doesn't want to do it forever. And, neither does Allison. And, now we are back to the employee issue.
    I can't get 'em, even if I want 'em!
    But, with the horizontal, say it takes one person 30 minutes to load up the stones (timing will get real important here).
    Joe can come in @ 3am like he has been doing for a few months now. Like you say: it will be waiting with up to 6 stones full of finished parts.
    He will have to swap one out, push go, then change the rest. Say it takes takes 1:30 to run through the full set.
    He has an hour to do other stuff. Whatever it may be? Sweep? Mop? Move stock around? Run home and drop a deuce? Work on a set-up?
    Run the 3rd OP on two of the parts? Whatever? Or he can leisurely swap em out at his convenience. i don't care, as long as that spindle is singing.
    I roll out at 8-9am. Now for the rest of the day, we share it. Just depends on who is doing what. Doesn't matter who does it.
    I like to keep Joe doing simple set-ups on the other stuff he is competent at. He really enjoys is. I find it painfully boring (just as bad as swapping parts really).
    Joe leaves at 1pm. Now its all on me from 1pm until Allison rolls out around 4. So I do a complete swap what 1 maybe 2 times?
    She takes over for a few hours (of course we share it). She usually handles bagging all the parts. Making boxes. Taping boxes shut. There is plenty to do.
    But, she also runs parts. So, we work until 8-10pm.
    Whenever we feel like going in? Make sure the chip hopper is empty. Coolant is topped. And, load it up one last time.
    And stroll in the house. This is where we get 1:30 extra spindle time. Add this to the 1hr we didn't spend shoveling chips. And what have we got?
    3am to 11pm basically. So, 20 hours. Can the HMC do in 20 hours? What 4 brothers can do in 8-10?
    If it can? I didn't have to hire anybody. And, nobodies hair was on fire. Bye-the-way, Joe works that crazy shift cause he likes it. His idea, not mine!
    And, I am still able to run the business during normal hours because I am not chained to a couple/few hungry brothers. It just seems more pleasant.

    This is also why a used machine is not even on the table. This shit needs to be reliable! And, why I am really not considering a haas.
    I am well aware if the "big-guy" goes down, we are dead in the water (NOT GOOD).
    In my application, a real HMC should be a 20 year machine easy.
    Doosan, Matsuura, Kiwa, Okuma. Those are pretty much my choices with local support. There is Mazak here to. But, not my cup-o-tea.

    Also, amidst all this I still need to process the 3rd OP on two of these parts. It happens on a 4th in a vertical. No way around this.
    The plan is to put this in the existing brother. I will have to buy two 4ths for it. And, put one part on either pallet.
    This will have no problem keeping up. Probably sit a lot actually. But, if i don't go the horizontal route? It takes two haas's with 4ths to service this operation.
    So, I would have at least 3, probably 4 brothers, and two haas's, running these parts for 8 hours. Everybody will be tired and hate their job.
    Or, I will have one HMC, and one Brother running these parts. With plenty of time between to service the other work that I don't want to turn away.
    And, everybody is still happy, cause work doesn't suck so bad.

    Also It effectively decreases my total machine count from six (minimum, possibly 7) to four. I like that!

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    Well, you understand the timeline of what you are after better than us.
    You don't need to explain it fully.

    As long as we made sure to bring to light any pitfalls that you may not have thought of is all, as you obviously have experience on these.

    Otherwise, we are just playing Yes Men to your prefered outcome and you can have Allison read through and feel warm and fuzzy about signing yet another 40 lines...

    I don't believe for a minute that you need our input.


    BTW - Hopefully one day Joe can learn to git his daily routine on a different schedule ...


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    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    One other thing that I considered on H / V is that while an H lets chips fall away, a V lets gravity help to hold your part while you tighten or whatever.

    Changing the same part on an H could take another hand to hold down?

    May or may not apply in your case...


    --------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    Yea, well aware. The parts are small, weigh mere ounces. Easy to span the two in jaws with two fingers while the vise is snugged.
    The ones in Pitbulls/mandrels pretty much hold themselves in place while stuff is tightened. Shouldn't be an issue.
    Not sure how ergonomically friendly swinging the dead-blow will be compared to a vertical? That will probably be the worst part.

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