one horizontal vs. how many verticals? (Brothers at that) - Page 7
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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    But, just because something can be done. Doesn't mean it should.
    More folks should heed those words..................I've seen some purdy stupid stuff done in the name of faster, better, .........................

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  3. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    For the Doosan, it is $302k + transport & rigging. (deeply discounted from over $400k)

    These guys have me scared of the power situation now, LOL

    Waiting on a quote for a Matty. May even call Methods and get a quote for a Kiwa.
    Nice, what options on it? 2-pallet? or a pool?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thesidetalker View Post
    Nice, what options on it? 2-pallet? or a pool?
    Pool - 6. 120 tools, 15k spindle, probes, conveyor. The list of std options is pretty impressive as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    For the Doosan, it is $302k + transport & rigging. (deeply discounted from over $400k)

    These guys have me scared of the power situation now, LOL

    Waiting on a quote for a Matty. May even call Methods and get a quote for a Kiwa.
    On Okuma's website it says their MB-4000H starts at $246k. I don't know what extra you'd need to get it to over $300k though but surely worth comparing if thats not already done. Some have reported getting better deals than the " starting at " price, with options before on their verticals.


    I think Seekins had bought a Kiwa for a while some years ago? someone here had anyway but then changed to something else(makino) I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post
    On Okuma's website it says their MB-4000H starts at $246k. I don't know what extra you'd need to get it to over $300k though but surely worth comparing if thats not already done. Some have reported getting better deals than the " starting at " price, with options before on their verticals.


    I think Seekins had bought a Kiwa for a while some years ago? someone here had anyway but then changed to something else(makino) I think.
    Seekins had a Matsuura, followed by his Makino cell. Probably cells by this point if they could fit them in the building. He's one of those along with Tony that I wished posted more and we got updates about.

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  8. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post
    On Okuma's website it says their MB-4000H starts at $246k. I don't know what extra you'd need to get it to over $300k though but surely worth comparing if thats not already done. Some have reported getting better deals than the " starting at " price, with options before on their verticals.


    I think Seekins had bought a Kiwa for a while some years ago? someone here had anyway but then changed to something else(makino) I think.
    I know the local Okuma guy. I have an email in to him. Haven't heard back yet. I don't see anything on Okuma's site about pools?
    I need a minimum of 4 for this to work. 6 would be nice. 8 would be better.

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  10. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    What year is this Kitty? Cause, that is just ridiculous.

    Specs from the brochure for the Doosan I am looking at: Pallet change: 8 seconds. Chip to chip tool-change 2.3 seconds. Tool pre-call (nearest to farthest) 2.9 seconds.
    2019 HX500iG

    Pallet loading takes a long time if the pallet is not staged. It takes easily 40-50 seconds to grab the pallet from its pedestal and bring it to the door, then zero/unclamp the one in the machine, rotate door and bring the in-machine pallet back to it's pedestal. If there's already a pallet on the back of the door but you want another one - that's where you're looking at 3+ minutes.

    As for tool changes, it's fine if the tool is staged and ready to load. Unfortunately you can't do that if you are running various HSM m-codes in your program, because the look-ahead causes the machine to grab the tool and stage it right then and there. It's complicated and there are some work arounds in some cases, but if you are grabbing a tool from the ass-end of the extended 200-tool magazine, it can easily take over a minute to find its way to the spindle. There are other issues too - like tool groups only work on tools in the main (50 pot) magazine, not on the extended magazine.

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  12. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    Dave, if I steer 100% of the revenue from that HMC (the Doosan I have quoted) towards principal @ the target part volumes, it pays for itself in 8 weeks man!

    Is that possible? NO
    Am I going to hit the targets from go? NO
    Can I pass this up? Hell NO

    If I don't make these parts, eventually, somebody else will. I gotta do what I gotta do.
    On the money side, another interesting development is that DMG Mori will now lease a machine on a short-term basis. I believe you can choose the length, but something like 6mo, 12mo, etc. You don't own anything at the end, but the payment is a lot less than a 'lease to own' arrangement. If you're worried about getting deep with the bank, or the potential of the work to dry up, or worried that the decision you make 12 months from now after having tried the horizontal route might not be the decision you make today, it might make sense.

  13. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    I know the local Okuma guy. I have an email in to him. Haven't heard back yet. I don't see anything on Okuma's site about pools?
    I need a minimum of 4 for this to work. 6 would be nice. 8 would be better.
    Okuma definitely has pallet pool HMC's. I am a strong hater of Fanuc controls. The max memory you can get is pitiful, which is quickly eaten up as soon as you start having multiple pallets with multiple parts. They will shout "data server!", but that comes with limitations... often in terms of whether you can call a sub program on the data server, can you load a program direct from ethernet to the DS, can you do ALL of the same stuff on DS NC files that you can do on memory NC files (they will say yes but the answer is NO!).

    Nice thing about Okuma is you couldn't max out the memory capacity if you tried. Plus, since this seems like a mission-critical application for you, there's something real nice about the machine manufacturer also being the control manufacturer... saves you getting run arounds or having to deal with finger pointing if/when something goes wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SRT Mike View Post
    Okuma definitely has pallet pool HMC's. I am a strong hater of Fanuc controls. The max memory you can get is pitiful, which is quickly eaten up as soon as you start having multiple pallets with multiple parts. They will shout "data server!", but that comes with limitations... often in terms of whether you can call a sub program on the data server, can you load a program direct from ethernet to the DS, can you do ALL of the same stuff on DS NC files that you can do on memory NC files (they will say yes but the answer is NO!).

    Nice thing about Okuma is you couldn't max out the memory capacity if you tried. Plus, since this seems like a mission-critical application for you, there's something real nice about the machine manufacturer also being the control manufacturer... saves you getting run arounds or having to deal with finger pointing if/when something goes wrong.
    This is the stuff I need to know! I figured stuff like this wouldn't be an issue by now?! Crazy.

    I am real curious to see what Yamazen comes back with for the Matty. As they (Yamazen) have been nothing but fantastic to work with.

    But, your point about the Okuma is a big one.

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  17. #131
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    The OSP-300 does have limitations on program size, kinda. You have a fixed buffer size and after that you need to basically move over to a data server type setup. Don't get me wrong I'm no fan of FANUC but the Matsuura is going to have options that are similar in program processing to an Okuma. Ask them but I think all the Matsuuras are running the embedded Windows FANUC. I know our 2018 MX-520 was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SRT Mike View Post
    Okuma definitely has pallet pool HMC's. I am a strong hater of Fanuc controls. The max memory you can get is pitiful, which is quickly eaten up as soon as you start having multiple pallets with multiple parts. They will shout "data server!", but that comes with limitations... often in terms of whether you can call a sub program on the data server, can you load a program direct from ethernet to the DS, can you do ALL of the same stuff on DS NC files that you can do on memory NC files (they will say yes but the answer is NO!).
    Last year I got a new VMC with Fanuc Oi-MF(I think the control has build date late in 2018). After several hours trying Data Server settings found a setup that seems pretty flawless.
    I "mapped" the DS to a "local drive on my computer. Anytime the machine is on, I can move files on to the DS with file explorer(copy paste in windows). The program files can be virtually any arbitrary name(i.e. THE-FIRST-PART-TODAY-OP1.TXT), but must not have any" "(spaces), and must end with .TXT.
    Then on the machine Edit(HK)->Program(HK)->right arrow(SK) until device change soft key appears(press SK)->press DS MEM/FTP?(don't remember for sure right now). Then in the library shows all the files currently on the DS highlight the file you want, and press(SK) Main Prog. Then Mem Mode(HK) and your ready to run.

    It acts exactly like the(pitifully small) machine memory, in everyway I've tried. Call local sub, call sub on the actual machine mem, Macro jump around, mid-program start anywhere doesn't not seem to be a problem. It wouldn't surprise me if this is a fairly new thing, but seems like anything coming off the line now would be capable of the same thing.

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    Just to throw another idea out there. I would give major thought to redesigning the fixture/clamping to get rid of(minimize) the chance for chips, and get rid of any manually actuated clamps/screws, and go hydraulic. Get the parts up out of any pockets, with as much open air around the parts as possible.
    To check for chips caught under the parts you use "Air-Sensing" under/on your datums. Small jet of air comes up thru the locating datums. When the part is loaded and clamped it (mostly)seals this jet off making the flow meter/pressure switch which in turn provides a signal to the machine/robot/cell controller, that the parts clamped and ready to go.

    This and a robot with a magazine/drawer setup I think would be pretty nice, either on a pallet changer brother, or a HMC. The fixtures could be on Ball-locks, or some "zero-point" bases, to change for the different parts, with a half dozen quick connects for air/hydraulic. This would add initial cost to the fixturing, and you maynot be able to fit as many parts per fixture, but I think that's how the big boys do it.

    But if you've already had someone(Yamazen) look at it. They don't have a warm fuzzy feeling about automating then maybe it can't be done/not practical.

    Also the time to first parts would most likely be longer. Than just essentially duplicating your current production method via more spindles/pallet pool HMC.

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    [QUOTE=Oldwrench;3597250]
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    This has been the most technically informed thread I've ever read on PM. Both cases (Horiz vs. Vert) are made very, very well.

    .
    gotta agree with this one very informative.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Remember, Guys can do that no problem but girls?
    and on this one, you never been to queen creek I'm assuming, the chicks out there stand up to pee and the guys well the tend to sit alot .

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  24. #135
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    Do you think chips falling back into the work holding would be a problem if the work holding was up on a horizontal pallet and outside of the machining area? Maybe once the horizontal is up and going you can revisit the robotic loading idea. just my ¢.02

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    OT - there is a shop around the corner from where I work that has a Toyoda with 300 tools and 48 pallets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingbob View Post
    Do you think chips falling back into the work holding would be a problem if the work holding was up on a horizontal pallet and outside of the machining area? Maybe once the horizontal is up and going you can revisit the robotic loading idea. just my ¢.02
    That seems like a good idea. I guess everyone has said robot or horizontal but you are the first to say robot and a horizontal.

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  28. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardplates View Post
    I suppose a second wife to help out around the shop is out of the question?

    Just checking
    Sounds like a smartass comment, but it isn't far-fetched at all. My second wife actually did become a pretty decent lathe and mill hand and, as management, is still the main contributor to the company. My first wife was a shortsighted, card-carrying C-word who announced one day that my business of making race car parts was a childish dream doomed to failure and she wasn't going to hang around for that. Actually, she did literally hang around because she kept the house—while I went to live in the shop on a mezzanine. But the point is, the wife is either an obstacle or a powerful driving force. If she concludes going in hock for $250K in one year is necessary to compete, then you don't need to agonize over the decision, just do WTF you're told and like it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    Sounds like a smartass comment, but it isn't far-fetched at all. My second wife actually did become a pretty decent lathe and mill hand and, as management, is still the main contributor to the company. My first wife was a shortsighted, card-carrying C-word who announced one day that my business of making race car parts was a childish dream doomed to failure and she wasn't going to hang around for that. Actually, she did literally hang around because she kept the house—while I went to live in the shop on a mezzanine. But the point is, the wife is either an obstacle or a powerful driving force. If she concludes going in hock for $250K in one year is necessary to compete, then you don't need to agonize over the decision, just do WTF you're told and like it.
    I meant a second one in addition to all hands on deck

    And yes it was a joke

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  31. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardplates View Post
    I meant a second one in addition to all hands on deck
    All this work piling up and move to Utah?

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