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Onsrud, Komo, or Other CNC router? C-Axis or 5th Axis?

Sullivan

Plastic
Joined
Jan 11, 2022
Hello All,

My company is looking to buy a router and our budget is about 150k. Used machine is OK as long as it is relatively new and low hours. We need a machine with ball screws for accuracy, and it needs to be rigid as we machine thick carbon fiber plate to tight tolerances, and the cutting forces are similar to aluminum. We basically don't cut anything else.

Currently we are using a Fadal 6030 for this work, but its long in the tooth and it would need a complete overhaul, also we would like to have a 5x10 envelop. We have been looking at fixed gantry onsrud machines. Are there any other brands we should be looking at? Is Komo on par with onsrud? We were also looking at Shopsabre IS and IS-M series, but we are concerned about rigidity with moving gantry and also it has exposed ball screws on the side which we are concerned about damaging.

Lastly, we use the height of the current mill to drill holes in the sides of large parts which we fixture vertically. So, with the new router we would either need a c-axis or a 5th axis for this purpose. If we got a c-axis we would be drilling from the side. If we got a 5th axis, most likely we would use our existing fixtures in the machine due to the height, and seldom use 5th axis features. Will 5th axis reduce our rigidity?

If anybody has experience with these machines and requirements, I'm all ears and would appreciate your input. We are a small company and this is a large purchase for us so I would like to make the best decision possible. Thanks.
 
If you're just drilling holes on the sides, you can use aggregate (angle head) tooling on a 3-axis machine. The cost savings will be significant compared to a 5-axis machine. The catch is that the aggregate tooling is expensive, so if you have multiple angles, you'll need multiple aggregate heads. If all the angles are the same, e.g. 90 degrees, you'll only need one.

Komo was THE name in routers in the early 2000s but their presence seems to have dwindled since then. CR Onsrud pulled forward considerably and are the top dog at the moment.

How did your company come up with the 150K budget? You'll definitely be in used territory with either brand.
 
Yea, drilling holes in the side seems to be the main criteria. There are situations where 5th axis could be handy but its definitely sub 1% and I'm not sure if can justify the added expense there if the C-axis works out.

I was leaning towards the machine in the link below, or something like it. I contacted the company and its just slightly outside our budget but it comes with an awesome dust collection and vacuum hold down system.

Used CR Onsrud 122S18 - CNC Router - 8069458

150k budget is what we will have cash on hand for the expense in march. We just financed a waterjet a few months back and we don't want to finance anything else at the moment if possible.

In terms of the aggregate head, this is kind of new territory for me so I'm green. I was under the impression it would be something like the head in the link below, where you are able to control angle and direction, but it sounds like you are suggesting another option that has fixed position. 90 degrees would cover the vast majority of our needs. Do you have an example of this? Any idea what installation looks like?

Blade aggregate - HSD

Thank you!
 
We bought a Multicam Apex router, and we are very pleased. We followed the dealers advice and went for a hefty quality vacuum pump and not just a bog standard one. Think it makes a difference - we seem to get away with a lot without using tabs. Mostly POM-C and PE sheets, but also aluminium occassionally.

Don't think they come with rotary axis options, but sure happy we chose the oscillating knife option. If you've ever ordered and paid for custom rubber gaskets you'd know that there's a good business to tap into:-)

Note: For the sake of comparison I wish that I'd heard of Onsrud before we got into this. Despite it's Nordic name I don't think they are represented in Scandinavia.
 
The multicam apex looks a lot nicer than the router we currently have for sure, but we are trying to get something with balls screws. We have rack and pinion on a Camaster router. That little router has made us a lot of money over the years, but its been an inhibitor in terms of high precision work. That's why we originally bought the Fadal 6030, but we don't machine ferrous metals, so we are thinking high precision router with much larger envelop makes more sense for production.
 
Shoda, interesting. I have never heard of them before, but Japanese machines are usually awesome.
 
Since your out in CA should just swing over to Haas and check out some gantries being built out on the floor. There are quiet a few of them here in WI and across the country doing more heavy duty applications compared to the more traditional woodworking router mfgs.

one shop i know of pulled a komo out and replaced it with a haas gantry for doing mostly plastic sheet work and long aluminum extrusions the komo just wasn't holding up granted komo had some miles on it vs a new haas.

i've looked at northwoods machines holy balls are those things frickin huge and overbuilt for most applications.....

we've got 3 routers on our floor more lower end stuff for woodworking. we are looking at getting a new machine and i'm very interested in newcnc out of MI they import their frames and build their machines at their facility a lot of bang for the buck and well within your budget. Doug the owner is very knowledgeable about applications may be worth a call.

the only big name you don't have on the list is thermwood for usa made stuff. i'd say multicam, onsrud, and thermwood are the top dogs making routers here in the states. problem is your budget prob not going to get you a high end router.
 
I should also mention we have a Multicam Apex 3R.

It's a great machine, but I don't know if I'd call it high precision, at least not compared to a VMC. We use it for cutting wood, corrugated, and foam (drag knife).

You say you're currently using a Fadal 6030. That's only 25% of a 5x10. What's the largest workpiece you'll realistically be cutting? For what you're describing, I'd rather have a big VMC like a Haas VF9 or VF11.
 
Yea, i did find a couple used haas routers, definitely looked like rigid machines, but it was set up for aluminum, with 10krpm spindle and flood coolant. Everything in our shop is set up for dry machining carbon fiber reinforced plastic. Its basically all we do. We also do a fair amount of detailed work, so high speed spindle is important. right now our router is 18k and mill is 17k, but was definitely looking forward to something like a 24k 18hp spindle or something like that. Yea, budget is always an issue. Full disclosure this is my company, 150k is what I've got at this stage so I need to make it work. I started this company with machines that were practically worthless, so ill be stoked with a decent piece of equipment. I'm looking to extend my budget by searching machines that are 4 or 5 years old and have been very lightly used because it seems like that roughly cuts the cost in half. I have found some Onsrud machines in this category, and now I have some other solid names to look for. Should be pulling the trigger on something in the next 2 or 3 months.
 
Well, we manufacture 4x8ft sheets of carbon fiber reinforced plastic, up to a couple inches thick and we cut the material into parts of all sizes. Before trimming they are a bit larger. Sometimes we make parts that are larger than our current machine envelop and its a serious pain. The Fadal has provided rigidity that results in much lower chatter / better cut quality than our current router, so i was looking for a happy medium - get enough rigidity to produce good cut quality in our material which probably has lower cutting forces than aluminum, while increasing our envelop. No perfect solution here, just optimizing for budget really.
 
what kind of tight tolerances do you need to hit with the router? i usually tell our customers you can hold tenths on a mill and couple thou at best on a router esp after sanding and working most parts. we are in a similar situation we've got a techno that is a flimsy POS imo and anoher low end import router, just picked up a 5x5 thermwood that is built like a shit brickhouse we are going to be firing up but our next router is going to be something that is way better than anything currently on our floor. and if we are going to spend some coin not farting around with used dealers and still paying serious bucks for a used large frame machine like a router.

that camaster is a decent mid level machine if that's the high bar right now a real router should be a treat moving forward. just proceed with caution on used routers good field techs can be hard to come by and the wrong used router can be a nightmare.

haas gantries span from guys running steel plate that water jets can't do cause they need to tap holes and angled profiles so they are running low end grunt 5k spindles, to like you mentioned guys running plastic and al with a 10k spindle, they also offer 15k spindles on those guys as well. Onsrud and Thermwood I would say are at the top of the list for product and support.

All your parts vacuum held then? Haven't had the pleasure of cutting any carbon fiber...Yet!
 
Some good advise on routers here, so I'll focus on a different area - financing.

You've mentioned wanting to avoid financing, and the budget for the new machine being $150K because it's "what you have".

This sounds really risky to me. Right now, with the potential volatility of the economy, I'd say that Reserve Cash is King. Tapping all your working capital for one machine seems very risky, and could make you vulnerable to sudden expenses of whatever type. And generally, interest rates are still pretty low.

Unless there's absolutely no way you can get credit at the moment, I'd finance. And if that's the case, I'd seriously think about waiting for a new machine. I know the risks of having inadequate reserve capital, and frankly it's best not to be in that situation.
 
Anderson America makes some seriously heavy routers and a lot of bang for the dollar. They are made in China/ Tiwan with Fanuc controls. I have a 5x12 machine. At 25,000 pounds it is not a lightweight. But my spindle went south about 600 hours to the tune of 6k and 6 weeks. Machine had very little use and long out of warranty. I bought it because it was cheap. But if I was buying a router as a daily workhorse it would be a Northwood, possibly Onsrud too. Komo was bought out years ago and they started to make stone routers just like Northwood was doing. But Komo needed to farm out its welded frames and Park industries was doing them for a bit. To make that deal work Komo had to give up making routers for stone. I think they are made overseas now.
 
I have an older Komo, it is a monster and cuts non ferrous just fine. I don't do it much as I don't like the mess and don't have that work lined up right now for it. My previous job I had 2 Onsrud's, a 5 axis and a 4 axis fixed bridge. I got to order that one new in 2007. I got to know the guys at Onsrud pretty well then and got to visit the plant as well. I did not buy one when I went out on my own strictly due to price. They carry a higher resale than the Komo I bought did. I had years of experience on one like it so I knew what I was getting. The two I had were Osai controls which was all they had at the time. If I got to pick today, I'd find one of theirs with the Fanuc control. I would also look at the drill bank on cnc routers, they are made for a higher duty cycle than an aggregate head and are usually cheaper, especially when getting a used machine that has one on it. The drill bank is a set of drill spindles on a 32mm spacing and they almost all have horizontal drills in both X and Y. If that doesn't do all you need, then get a C axis with an aggregate head as well.
Our Onsrud had a NEMI grid style aluminum table and it was really nice for fixtures and you could add pods to get the parts up off the table etc.

A friend of mine has 2 DMS routers he bought new within the last 5 years and he really likes them both. I think they are a Fagor control? It has been a bit since I saw them but I recall them being well built. One is a 5 and the other is a 3 axis.

I have not ran a Northwood, but I have been around them a little and I class it the same as the old Komo and Onsrud.

I have not seen a Shoda for 15+ years, but they were top of the line then, idk what they are up to now. Heian was also a nice higher end machine, but they are serviced by Styles and with that comes a very high service and parts cost.

There are some pretty good Euro made machines, but they are going to be more cabinet focuses than general machine work and they usually have a proprietary control on them that takes jumping through a few hoops to get from a standard CAD/CAM package to making parts.

I have not kept up on the recent offerings from Komo, so don't have anything to offer there.

From what you have stated you want, I'd go find an Onsrud fixed bridge machine, 5x12 with a split/twin table with one 5x4 and one 5x8, this allows you to fixture up to cut full sheets on one and partial or smaller parts on the other. You can also pallet change them, as in run both tables like a pallet changer. Or lock together for full size parts.
I'd get a C axis just to have it. I had a couple aggregate heads and used them enough to justify it. I would also get the drill bank with the horizontal drills. I'd pick the Fanuc control over the Osai for reliability.
One thing that is very nice that some other places might not have is they have very good applications guys. I know one well and he is very good. They usually have a few people that are very good with the different CAM programs and making sure that you can actually make the parts.
I had a 40hp Dekker vac pump to go with it and a Gorbel jib crane with Schmalz vac lift to load the machine. Pretty slick setup.

If you do get a C axis and or drill bank machine, they will usually have a much larger dust shroud to go around it all and can have up to a 10" port on them. I had plenty of dust collector, so wasn't a problem, but something to think about.

Oh, some of the orientations of routers can mean they are going to be over size to ship them. Mine is 11 ft at it's narrowest no matter if you take it apart or not. Cost a little bit more to ship than the Onsrud did. Our 5x12 fixed bridge came in a regular semi trailer, just had to have a monster forklift to pull it out like a big pallet.

As for Z axis height, most used are going to be under 16", so you may not be able to stand your parts up. I am assuming if you can use the drill bank though, you won't need to stand them up. You can special order taller bridges, but the norm is not 5 axis tall. Also, most 5 axis cnc routers have a counter balance cylinder sticking up off them that adds to the overall height and makes ceiling height a real concern.
 
macgyver - awesome post. So far most of the machines I have found are Onsrud. They must sell a lot of machines. Many of them come with the 40HP Dekker vacuum. still looking at other brands you mentioned though. I haven't seen any Shoda machines newer than 2000, and I'm trying to get something that is 2015 or newer. I like your thought process on the 5x12 with split twin table. We definitely want a fixed bridge machine for added rigidity and accuracy. We might end up buying a front load machine, but side load machines are supposed to be a bit more rigid and accurate because the gantry is shorter, and that's appealing, but they cant have split tables in that configuration. Also, we probably wont be parting with our existing router, so it will be available for light duty work with lower precision requirements. We have also been talking about possibly having our fadal 6030 rebuilt which alleviate some of the immediate needs of c-axis, and that also reduces our z axis requirements. Shorter Z should also provide greater rigidity. I will definitely keep an eye out for a drill bank, that's a great idea, and that would suit the vast majority of our needs.

ducesrwld - We loose work because we cant hit the numbers, because our fadal is too small or loose and our current router cant hit the tolerances. Our Fadal needs work and is hitting something around +/-.002". our rack and pinion router is hitting somthing like +/-.007". Onsrud says that the 5x10 side load router has an accuracy of about +/-.0025" over the 10ft length, so I'm assuming in a smaller area like 2x2ft, something better than that. Hopefully around .001" That should do it really, especially if we have our Fadal rebuilt. Machining carbon fiber is kind of like machining hard wood. You need a solid dust collection system because the dust is abrasive and conductive, but no need for coolant or oil mist, which makes for a clean shop and clean machines.

Scruffy887 - With everything going on right now i really want to get something made in the states. I recently had something break on a Chinese machine and I just had to make the part myself.

Milland - I appreciate the advice but honestly i have that one covered. I have managed to keep this company in a good way financially for 8 years so far knock on wood. We just financed a waterjet and overextending yourself to credit can be just as dangerous. Also we are not spending our reserves. I'm honestly just not a new machine person. If I can save 50% and get a lightly used practically new machine i will totally do that. I bought our waterjet used. It had 12 hours on it and that saved me something like 70k. I set the budget because we have other plans with our money and if i can bring in two rad machines instead of one super rad new machine, its going to make us a lot more money.
 
Keep in mind that a 32mm spaced drill bank will have a high duty cycle, but not for heavy drilling. These units are made for plywood and particle board and typical use would be 5-8 mm holes. Usually one of the drill spindles will let you drill a 35-40 mm hole in ply as well. ALL drill shanks are 10mm with a setscrew flat. You can call up any single drill, or many at a time. The Z axis does the drilling and each spindle extends to length by air pressure. If the material is too hard the bit will either break, or get pushed back up when the thrust overcomes the air pressure. The Horz drills (if equipped) will not tolerate a lot of thrust and if you really need a horz hole you can put a 8mm spear point bit in and hole depth to just be like a shallow center drill.
Oh, drill bank needs left and right hand bits as the 32 mm spacing is because of the gear size. More to spacing than that, not relevant.
 
Having purchased used routers in the past, seriously consider having any potential machine verified with a laser before buying it if you need to hold tight tolerances with it. The cost is minimal in the overall scope of things. Having to recomp leadscrews or realign rails etc after you have it on your floor is no fun, so find these things out while the machine still belongs to someone else. Seems you have already figured out that a good vacuum system is paramount. Good luck in your quest.
 








 
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