Opinions on Star SR-32J vs Tsugami B0325B-II in Chicagoland

Hi Everyone,

We are deciding between those two machines for our next Swiss. Does anyone have any positive or negative input to share on either the machines or support available in the Chicagoland area? It looks like they have the same 32-iB control. We'll be doing quite a bit of milling with the live front cross tooling so if anyone knows if either one is more robust than the other that would be helpful, but I imagine each machine has it's foibles so I am mostly concerned with the after-the-sale support...THAT one's a biggie.

Thank you!

We're starting the two weeks of training with REM on Monday for our new B0326-II; I'll let you know how it goes. Morris has been fantastic for us so far, and the two weeks training you get with that machine (plus 150 day skip terms still I think?) are something to think about. REM supports the swiss machines directly, so we'll see if there are any differences in service.

I've been playing around with the Abile software, and it will certainly get the job done for all of our parts. My biggest gripe is it does not appear possible to import models; you have to build the geometry in Abile.

The front cross milling station has three ER16 stations and one ER20 station IIRC. We got the rear cross milling station as well as the adjustable-angle double sided holder that mounts back there.

We are doing shorter runs of stuff and Sandvik is working with us on their quick change tooling system. We also went with emulsion coolant rather than oil, and didn't get high pressure. I'm kicking myself now for not getting rear ejection, but we did get the chip conveyor that will allow us to add it later. As we get orders in for some of the "deep cuts" from the thousands of legacy part numbers here, I'm finding more that won't fit the parts catcher. Doh! One thing is they are serious when they say it is ready for high pressure. Add the pump and everything else is already on or ships with the machine.

Hope that helps, I'll know more in the coming weeks.

Rick Finsta said:

We're starting the two weeks of training with REM on Monday for our new B0326-II; I'll let you know how it goes. Morris has been fantastic for us so far, and the two weeks training you get with that machine (plus 150 day skip terms still I think?) are something to think about. REM supports the swiss machines directly, so we'll see if there are any differences in service.

I've been playing around with the Abile software, and it will certainly get the job done for all of our parts. My biggest gripe is it does not appear possible to import models; you have to build the geometry in Abile.

The front cross milling station has three ER16 stations and one ER20 station IIRC. We got the rear cross milling station as well as the adjustable-angle double sided holder that mounts back there.

We are doing shorter runs of stuff and Sandvik is working with us on their quick change tooling system. We also went with emulsion coolant rather than oil, and didn't get high pressure. I'm kicking myself now for not getting rear ejection, but we did get the chip conveyor that will allow us to add it later. As we get orders in for some of the "deep cuts" from the thousands of legacy part numbers here, I'm finding more that won't fit the parts catcher. Doh! One thing is they are serious when they say it is ready for high pressure. Add the pump and everything else is already on or ships with the machine.

Hope that helps, I'll know more in the coming weeks.

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Thanks for the info, Rick! Congrats on your new machine! I know you got the turret Tsugami not long ago so it looks like things are going well for you!

Is your "fantastic" service from the Milwaukee or Chicago location from MMW? We got a B0205 three years ago that I am very happy with, but need a bigger machine for bigger diameter work and more rigid live tooling. One thing we've stroked our beards about is chips seem to make their way through the slits of the guide bushing and up into the gap between the non-contact position sensor and the outer encoder ring of the rotary guide bushing. The chips have then scratched the sensor to the point where it throws an alarm and then needs to be replaced ($500 or something?). I know we've replaced it at least twice but maybe three times...no one's really sure how the chips get in there but some of our guide bushings have the rubber-filled slits and some don't so we're going to use more with the plugged slits to see if that keeps the chips from getting back there but it's a little "WTF?"

I know you haven't started the training yet but have you taken any cuts with your live cross yet?

We've been using just 1/2" square shank tooling on the 20mm machine but I saw some quick-change tooling thingy at IMTS that looked interesting but I got distracted it could have been Sandvik but I don't think so..?

Cheers!

Since their headquarters isn't far I'd give Hanwha a look. Mine has been flawless for four years and I know they have all sorts of options these days so atleast one machine might be a good fit. Probably a good money savings also.

I am 99% all Swiss stuff is supported by REM directly from their Chicagoland tech center. That said, we got an apps guy in today training on the turret lathe and he said they've got him studying up on the Swiss stuff for a bit more local support here. He's *very* sharp so I'd love to have him working with us on both types of turning centers. We'll see what comes of it, though.

The REM Sales booth had a different type of quick change tooling at IMTS, but we're using the Sandvik stuff (just got a box of them on my desk this morning!).

No cuts yet but we should start up Monday morning. Most stuff in this lathe will be 304 and 416 (uuuugh) so if we have rigidity problems I'm sure we'll find them.

Training went great today and it is beer'o'clock!

Star customer service is very poor, even ordering parts if you know exactly what you want is like having a root canal. I have many anti-Star rants scattered across PM over the years.

Dualkit said:

Star customer service is very poor, even ordering parts if you know exactly what you want is like having a root canal. I have many anti-Star rants scattered across PM over the years.

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Hmmm, are the root-canalish service experiences from the Chicago office? Thanks!

Dualkit said:

Star customer service is very poor, even ordering parts if you know exactly what you want is like having a root canal. I have many anti-Star rants scattered across PM over the years.

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Nerdlinger said:

Hmmm, are the root-canalish service experiences from the Chicago office? Thanks!

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Your results could vary when it comes to service calls as that will depend on how good the techs are working out of the office you use. When I was working for the man in Cali over 20 years ago the techs sent out were nothing but tail chasers who constantly called the office for help while still charging out every minute they are onsite. As of a couple years ago an old friend back in So Cal told me that practice had not changed. The top tech stays in the office to support the knuckleheads in the field. The issue was Star did not pay field techs going rate, anyone worth their salt did not stay long.

Once I became self employed I have only ordered parts, I think their practices there are probably the same no matter what location you go through. For parts I have only called New York, let us say you need a headstock encoder belt. If ordering from a normal company that part could be ordered in a 2 minute phone call, not from Star.

First you will be faxed or e-mailed one of those exploded drawings that usually is the quality of a 1950's mimeograph copy, not all parts are listed in the set of books the machine comes with. You have to find the number of the part you need and look up the exact number of the needed belt on the corresponding part number list.

Then you have to e-mail or fax them a purchase order for the belt. Also they want you to fill out a credit application even if you use a credit or debit card. For credit card purchases you have to fill out a credit application every time you use one. When you question all the nonsense they blame it on being a Japanese company doing business in the USA which is utter BS. Also they mark up off the shelf belts and the like 10x and claim they are superior quality to anything that you can find which is also utter BS. Matching up off the shelf parts to avoid buying from Star can be time consuming but with Star it is well worth it. The only reason to tolerate price gouging is to save time, with the Star parts department that doesn't happen. I think the last item I did not buy was a belt they wanted $150 for that I bought elsewhere for $15.

P.S. I have never had anyone on PM post after one of my rants and put in a good word for the Star parts & service department.

Dualkit said:

headstock encoder belt.

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I know that was just a "for instance..." but the Tsugami is direct drive, so I guess that's one more thing going for it.

Dualkit said:

mimeograph

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Any time one can work "mimeograph" into a conversation I respect it.

Thanks for the input. CNC represents a smallish portion of my job so I tend to be more of a "jack of all trades master of none" so when I get stuck it is important that good service is available to help me get UNstuck. I remember reading comments synonymous in tone to yours not regarding Star machines, per se, but specifically their service. Maybe they were yours but whoever wrote them I remember others chiming in in agreement.

Thanks, again!

I don't know the machines you are looking at, but was curious why a Citizen model is not in your list. When I did do some work with screw machines, I always found the control functions and integration to be nicer on Citizen than any other brands.

Vancbiker said:

I don't know the machines you are looking at, but was curious why a Citizen model is not in your list. When I did do some work with screw machines, I always found the control functions and integration to be nicer on Citizen than any other brands.

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I haven't run a Citizen in ages, but they were the first CNCs I ran, D and F series. All nostalgia aside every time I go on a rant about poor parts and service from Star, people have chimed in that Citizen support is the exact opposite, people rave about it.

Dualkit said:

Star customer service is very poor, even ordering parts if you know exactly what you want is like having a root canal. I have many anti-Star rants scattered across PM over the years.

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I have a few rants scattered about myself. Last time we needed parts (an X-axis encoder cable) it took me something like a week and a half to get one. I had the part number from the cable and everything.

Vancbiker said:

I don't know the machines you are looking at, but was curious why a Citizen model is not in your list. When I did do some work with screw machines, I always found the control functions and integration to be nicer on Citizen than any other.

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You wouldn't happen to be familiar with an old (1984) Citizen F20 would you? We have one and the upper turret won't successfully index in the negative tool direction, say from tool 23 to tool 22. It'll index in a positive direction, from 22 to 23 etc all day long. In all fairness it did suffer a pretty tremendous wreck before this behavior started. It still makes money, I just have to be careful how I lay my tools out when I'm setting up.

aj said:

You wouldn't happen to be familiar with an old (1984) Citizen F20 would you? .....

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Sorry, not familiar with the F series. The Citizen machines I worked with were all L series from the late 80s to the late 90s.

Vancbiker said:

I don't know the machines you are looking at, but was curious why a Citizen model is not in your list. When I did do some work with screw machines, I always found the control functions and integration to be nicer on Citizen than any other brands.

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Yeah, I’ve heard nothing but good stuff about Citizens BUT we got our first Swiss - a Tsugami - three years ago and now need another machine. We had a problem or two but I like the Tsugami and of course now have three years experience with it so I want the next one to be another Tsugami since I would “know what we would be getting.”

The other guy here didn’t like those problems we had so wants to try a different brand and we figure the Star is closer to the Tsugami than the Citizen as far as learning curve for myself and the operators (same orientation, same control.)

If you can get a Tsugami with the same brand and generation controller and it will suit your needs well that would be a no brainer purchase to me. Nothing like having a machine you can play the board swap game for quickly diagnosing problems. Also if you have a hot job that took a while to get running and it is Friday morning if that machine needs a board even if support is right around the corner that machine will sit till Tuesday at best.

aj said:

You wouldn't happen to be familiar with an old (1984) Citizen F20 would you? We have one and the upper turret won't successfully index in the negative tool direction, say from tool 23 to tool 22. It'll index in a positive direction, from 22 to 23 etc all day long. In all fairness it did suffer a pretty tremendous wreck before this behavior started. It still makes money, I just have to be careful how I lay my tools out when I'm setting up.

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I ran F12, F16, F20, F25's 1980-85 vintages for a period of 7 years. Unfortunately that was over two decades ago. Since your problem occurred after a crash the problem is probably with a component inside or attached to the turret. I don't even remember what is in there anymore. If I owned the machine I would methodically disassemble both turrets and compare the two since I assume the other turret works fine. It could be as simple as a wire getting knocked off a limit switch.

So far so good; I'm working with Steve from REM and he's great. Looking forward to the rest of the week.

I am going to try to update my new machine day thread with more details, but the first week of REM training was great. I'm also getting rear ejection parts sent next day so I can automate this first part we're making. It is a 7" long part at 0.250" diameter in 304SS, so there were a lot of issues due to the work envelope limitations without rear ejection. Sandvik has been great throughout this as well, and I'm liking their QS system so far. I'm reaching out to Tsugami about a few things that are limiting me in Abile, but I found out that if I put code into Abile, it will run a simulation and collision detection! That's great for me.

I gotta make 5000 of these by next Friday, this is new territory for me!