Orange Vise experience?

SDI-Gary · Apr 8, 2014

Our new Makino a61nx is going to be placed on its foundation tomorrow and we still have no work holding purchased at this time. Obviously we are running a bit behind, but have our hands tied a bit by the parent company in Germany. We have decided to go ahead and purchase a tombstone and a couple of vises right away. The Orange vises look really nice, but I would like to get some feedback from some of you who may have them before making a decision.

Since these will be mounted on a vertical tombstone face, it is important that the two station vise start to grip one part lightly and then the other for easier part loading before really clamping tight. Do the Orange vises have this capability? We have a few Toolex vises that have this function.

Are the Orange vises holding up well? Any strengths or weaknesses worth reporting here?

--Gary

VFP · Apr 8, 2014

SDI-Gary said:
Our new Makino a61nx is going to be placed on its foundation tomorrow and we still have no work holding purchased at this time. Obviously we are running a bit behind, but have our hands tied a bit by the parent company in Germany. We have decided to go ahead and purchase a tombstone and a couple of vises right away. The Orange vises look really nice, but I would like to get some feedback from some of you who may have them before making a decision.

Since these will be mounted on a vertical tombstone face, it is important that the two station vise start to grip one part lightly and then the other for easier part loading before really clamping tight. Do the Orange vises have this capability? We have a few Toolex vises that have this function.

Are the Orange vises holding up well? Any strengths or weaknesses worth reporting here?

--Gary

Just got ours last week so can't say about durability, but yes the jaws do move independently. The vise looks very well made and nicely finished. The vise came in 2 boxes one with the body and one with the carrier assembly and sliding jaws and jaw plates. There was no parts list or assembly instructions in the boxes, but they are available on the website. Also the configuration that is sent as standard now is not quite what the website shows, they no longer send 2 center jaws, they send just the wider center jaw and instead of the narrower center jaw they send 2 sets to thin ( 1/4"} hardened jaw plates. Using these I think that you get more space on each side than with the narrow center jaw. Overall I am very satisfied so far with the vise, time will tell on the durability but I see no reason why it wouldn't last as well as any other quality vise.

HTH

Von

Red James · Apr 9, 2014

Your parent company may be doing you a small favor by delaying holding fixtures. Many horizontal type machines use custom build fixtures to allow access to five sides of a workpiece. This makes horizontals much more efficient than verticals for repeat or production part machining. This may help you start thinking on how to fixture your parts. Us poor people who only get to play with vmc's don't have to think so hard.

Pete Deal · Apr 9, 2014

Ditto what Von said. My 17.5" double vise came yesterday. I am still an outsider with this thing but on paper it appears that the versatility is the biggest selling point. There are some posts on here that discuss them some.

CARVEsmart · Apr 10, 2014

Gary
Do your homework on your vise towers. Consider a three sided tower allowing feature access past 90 degrees and shorter tools due to less obstructions from the fourth side and part. Jergens makes a nice 6 station three sided tower that has the third hand you seek.
Another suggestion, check out this new idea. Carvesmart Quick Change Vise Jaw System by Bellatex Industries2 - Welcome to Carvesmart! it is a quick change vise jaws system that accepts an extruded aluminum bar that can be cut to any length. They will mount to any vise Kurt jaws mount to. Goodbye cap screws.
Mr Jaws

SDI-Gary · Apr 10, 2014

Red James said:
Your parent company may be doing you a small favor by delaying holding fixtures. Many horizontal type machines use custom build fixtures to allow access to five sides of a workpiece. This makes horizontals much more efficient than verticals for repeat or production part machining. This may help you start thinking on how to fixture your parts. Us poor people who only get to play with vmc's don't have to think so hard.

No doubt they probably are doing us a favor. Since they denied hydraulics, and have their own ideas we have no real choice but play along. We have been working with a reputable fixture company here locally with concepts which we will take along with us on the trip.

This is a big step forward for us as well. We have been playing with VMCs up to this point. Time to get productive now.

--Gary

SDI-Gary · Apr 10, 2014

VFP said:
Just got ours last week so can't say about durability, but yes the jaws do move independently. The vise looks very well made and nicely finished. The vise came in 2 boxes one with the body and one with the carrier assembly and sliding jaws and jaw plates. There was no parts list or assembly instructions in the boxes, but they are available on the website. Also the configuration that is sent as standard now is not quite what the website shows, they no longer send 2 center jaws, they send just the wider center jaw and instead of the narrower center jaw they send 2 sets to thin ( 1/4"} hardened jaw plates. Using these I think that you get more space on each side than with the narrow center jaw. Overall I am very satisfied so far with the vise, time will tell on the durability but I see no reason why it wouldn't last as well as any other quality vise.

HTH

Von

That is good info. Thanks. These two vises will probably be kept for the odd jobs that may come along after we get proper work holding for the primary products targeted at this machine. It is likely that the OP10 work holding could be the same type vises with jaws for each size stock. Quick changing of jaws is going to be important for keeping setup times down. I like the looks of the Orange system from the watching their video. What is your impression with the real thing?

--Gary

jid2 · Apr 10, 2014

The fit of their soft jaws onto the pin is pretty loose. You have to push them to a side. But the fit of the fixed center jaw with its pins is pretty repeatable and ive been machining directly into a fixed soft center.

swarf_rat · Apr 11, 2014

I have some of the first Orange vises made, they are still holding up very well and I am still pleased with them. I don't use them on a horizontal, and I don't use the quick change jaw plate feature. However as was said above, the pins locate the fixed jaws (which can be front, back, or middle) pretty well and are pretty quick to change out. I have bought a few spare jaws (the prices are pretty reasonable) and keep sets of soft jaw plates on them for various parts. There is a feature that applies (adjustable) drag to the back jaw so that the front jaw will close first, allowing you to position the front part first then deal with the back. I haven't had the need for that so I don't know how well it works when used 'in anger'.

SDI-Gary · Apr 11, 2014

swarf_rat said:
I have some of the first Orange vises made, they are still holding up very well and I am still pleased with them. I don't use them on a horizontal, and I don't use the quick change jaw plate feature. However as was said above, the pins locate the fixed jaws (which can be front, back, or middle) pretty well and are pretty quick to change out. I have bought a few spare jaws (the prices are pretty reasonable) and keep sets of soft jaw plates on them for various parts. There is a feature that applies (adjustable) drag to the back jaw so that the front jaw will close first, allowing you to position the front part first then deal with the back. I haven't had the need for that so I don't know how well it works when used 'in anger'.

This adjustable drag feature is what I'm looking for to hold a part while loading the second one. Would this feature be set once for a given job or have to be meddled with for each loading?

Assuming we would choose these vises as our production work holding, we probably won't use the quick change jaw plates much, but rather change out the whole jaw sets. It looks like a couple bolts to remove the center jaw and a couple set screws release the moving jaws from the carrier. The carrier does not stick up into the jaw very much which could be a benefit when machining the pockets for work holding and clearances to allow chips to escape freely. Our Toolex vises have some restriction when machining the jaws since the carrier sticks up into the jaw quite a bit.

I hope none of our guys ever use these vises 'in anger'. LOL

--Gary

VFP · Apr 11, 2014

SDI-Gary said:
This adjustable drag feature is what I'm looking for to hold a part while loading the second one. Would this feature be set once for a given job or have to be meddled with for each loading?

Assuming we would choose these vises as our production work holding, we probably won't use the quick change jaw plates much, but rather change out the whole jaw sets. It looks like a couple bolts to remove the center jaw and a couple set screws release the moving jaws from the carrier. The carrier does not stick up into the jaw very much which could be a benefit when machining the pockets for work holding and clearances to allow chips to escape freely. Our Toolex vises have some restriction when machining the jaws since the carrier sticks up into the jaw quite a bit.

I hope none of our guys ever use these vises 'in anger'. LOL

--Gary

Gary,

the jaws remove from the carrier with one set screw. Easy to install and remove. There are a whole bunch of different jaw configurations for this vise just look on the orange vise web page. They are fairly reasonably priced as far as I can tell.

The clutch screw allows you to move the back jaw in towards the center jaw if you have 2 different sized parts so that the back jaw would close quicker after the front jaw. But under normal circumstances I think that you set it and forget it.
Someone correct me if I am mistaken on this.

Download the parts list and assembly pdfs from here to see the construction.
https://www.orangevise.com/vises#specs_and_downloads

jaws can be seen here
https://www.orangevise.com/vises#jaws

A sale price is indicated on the website so it might pay to call to see what their sale price is.

Von

SDI-Gary · Apr 11, 2014

Thanks Von. I appreciate any and all feedback. I have the detailed specs and quoted price from Orange. They are competitive in price to the Toolex vises we have now. The Orange design looks really nice. There are several things I really like about them from the videos, pics and literature, but all this information is virtual. Nothing like hearing from you guys who have them. I want to find out all I can to make an informed purchasing decision.

--Gary

swarf_rat · Apr 12, 2014

The drag device on the rear jaw is just a spring loaded brass pin that drags along the body. I think you would set it for a particular job and then run the parts, maybe have to adjust occasionally. Looking at it I'm not sure you would get enough drag to clamp a large part hanging out on a horizontal while dealing with the other - but as I've said I've not used them in that way.

One of the nice things on the Orange is how easily the front and rear jaw change out - seconds really. And the fact that the carrier only sticks up about 1/4" into the jaw, so you can machine a lot of it away. I think he will supply drawings if you want to machine your own jaws, they are cheap enough not to bother unless you are doing a lot of them. The vise is very easy to reconfigure from fixed-front to fixed-rear to fixed-middle two station, I have used all of the those configurations a lot.

SDI-Gary · Apr 12, 2014

swarf_rat said:
The drag device on the rear jaw is just a spring loaded brass pin that drags along the body. I think you would set it for a particular job and then run the parts, maybe have to adjust occasionally. Looking at it I'm not sure you would get enough drag to clamp a large part hanging out on a horizontal while dealing with the other - but as I've said I've not used them in that way.

One of the nice things on the Orange is how easily the front and rear jaw change out - seconds really. And the fact that the carrier only sticks up about 1/4" into the jaw, so you can machine a lot of it away. I think he will supply drawings if you want to machine your own jaws, they are cheap enough not to bother unless you are doing a lot of them. The vise is very easy to reconfigure from fixed-front to fixed-rear to fixed-middle two station, I have used all of the those configurations a lot.

Not sure if this design is ideal for horizontal. I may call Orange on Monday and ask a few questions.

I agree that the design of the jaws and carriers are really nice. They appear to offer the most flexibility for machining custom jaws since the carrier has such a low profile.

--Gary

HYPERTUNE · Apr 12, 2014

The brass pin sounds the same as my Bock vises. The Bocks are not adjustable and are perfect for my horizontal, but are tighter than necessary on the vertical. Being adjustable sounds like a great idea, and it's not something you would need to do often at all.

Joec@westminster · Apr 12, 2014

What size parts/ material will you be machining? For horizontal with tombstone applications, dovetail fixtures are quite flexible and effective. At our company we set up a dual station fixture in a horizontal/vertical configuration to accept palletized versions of the dovetail fixtures on our vmc. We have a standard Kurt on the table as well to prep the work piece blanks to be palletized.

Once the part is clamped in the fixture it does not come off till complete. Granted it would work best with a 4th axis for the side work but our operator is our poor mans 4th axis and it is working well for our needs.

Another benefit is we have two wcs that never change, we simply orient the work piece geometry in our cam and select the features to be cut and post. It is literally that easy with our software/fixture set up.

Joe

Whatley · Apr 13, 2014

CARVEsmart said:
Another suggestion, check out this new idea. Carvesmart Quick Change Vise Jaw System by Bellatex Industries2 - Welcome to Carvesmart! it is a quick change vise jaws system that accepts an extruded aluminum bar that can be cut to any length. They will mount to any vise Kurt jaws mount to. Goodbye cap screws.
Mr Jaws

As I just switched out Aluminum jaws on our own "new" (used showroom floor model, and 2 months old on our floor now) a61nx, I will have to say that horizontals make it awkward to change jaws and chips fill up the socket heads so you have to blow them out and make a mess to change things. Carvesmarts system would excel in this area, and in most Horizontal applications, being able to change from the face would be nice.

Never used Orange vises, I hear great things. The owners got talked into a good deal on like 9 Kurt vises so they bought those before I could even get a word in.

A word of caution, My shop didn't consult any machinists when buying anything. And they somehow ordered 4 big ass tombstones with a 2 inch bolt pattern. Yet then decided to buy those 9 Kurt vices with a like 5 inch Bolt pattern on them :confused:

. So none of our vises can bolt to the tombstones, so we had to make Aluminum plates to bolt the vices to so that we could bolt them to the tombstone :nutter:

Y'all will probably order the correct stuff, but just a reminder to double check everything. Getting a new machine and all the fixins is really taxing on the brain, lot's of stuff to get done.

and grats on the machine!

SDI-Gary · Apr 13, 2014

HYPERTUNE said:
The brass pin sounds the same as my Bock vises. The Bocks are not adjustable and are perfect for my horizontal, but are tighter than necessary on the vertical. Being adjustable sounds like a great idea, and it's not something you would need to do often at all.

Would rather set it once and forget about it.The Toolex vises we currently have do this. If it is something that needs to be set when clamping the first parts of a run, that's fine. I just need one side to open a bit before the other when unloading and then one to close up before the other when loading.

--Gary

SDI-Gary · Apr 13, 2014

Joec@westminster said:
What size parts/ material will you be machining? For horizontal with tombstone applications, dovetail fixtures are quite flexible and effective. At our company we set up a dual station fixture in a horizontal/vertical configuration to accept palletized versions of the dovetail fixtures on our vmc. We have a standard Kurt on the table as well to prep the work piece blanks to be palletized.

Once the part is clamped in the fixture it does not come off till complete. Granted it would work best with a 4th axis for the side work but our operator is our poor mans 4th axis and it is working well for our needs.

Another benefit is we have two wcs that never change, we simply orient the work piece geometry in our cam and select the features to be cut and post. It is literally that easy with our software/fixture set up.

Joe

Our parts will be mostly made from round and square aluminum bar. Short chunks from about 3" square to 8" square and about 5" round to 10" round.

I have looked at some dovetail options. It would add another OP to the process to prep the parts and with all our parts being bored through the middle I was a little concerned about holding them that way. Maybe just ignorance on my part though.

--Gary

SDI-Gary · Apr 13, 2014

Whatley said:
As I just switched out Aluminum jaws on our own "new" (used showroom floor model, and 2 months old on our floor now) a61nx, I will have to say that horizontals make it awkward to change jaws and chips fill up the socket heads so you have to blow them out and make a mess to change things. Carvesmarts system would excel in this area, and in most Horizontal applications, being able to change from the face would be nice.

Never used Orange vises, I hear great things. The owners got talked into a good deal on like 9 Kurt vises so they bought those before I could even get a word in.

A word of caution, My shop didn't consult any machinists when buying anything. And they somehow ordered 4 big ass tombstones with a 2 inch bolt pattern. Yet then decided to buy those 9 Kurt vices with a like 5 inch Bolt pattern on them . So none of our vises can bolt to the tombstones, so we had to make Aluminum plates to bolt the vices to so that we could bolt them to the tombstone

Y'all will probably order the correct stuff, but just a reminder to double check everything. Getting a new machine and all the fixins is really taxing on the brain, lot's of stuff to get done.

and grats on the machine!

Thanks and congrats to you too. Always exciting times when you get a new machine.

Our machinists are fully involved in these decisions. We have learned from some past mistakes in that regard too. It is important to have them personally invested in a project like this so that there is better understanding from top to bottom.

We will be purchase tombstones with no holes and d/t them ourselves on the machine. If we go with Orange, I intend to use their ball lock mountings for the vises. That would make a nice clean installation. Probably going to get an Abbott aluminum tombstone first and see how we like it. Most of the cutting tools have already been purchased.

--Gary

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