Paging Cameraman: Grob G350 vs Hermle C32 vs Mikron Mill P500
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    Default Paging Cameraman: Grob G350 vs Hermle C32 vs Mikron Mill P500

    so i'm starting at a new place on monday as the shop manager/programming lead/partner. one of my responsibilities here will be to bring the shop up to the current century technology wise (mostly haas mills, 3 axis and a umc500 - yuck, as well as some doosan mill turns)
    have some complex jobs coming up that will require a top notch machine capable of cutting inco as well as aluminum and anything in between. i have personal experience with Mikron (mill e 700) and Hermle (C12) and both have been great experiences.
    i've heard nothing but good things about Grob, and i gotta admit the layout is very appealing to me. would want it with Heideinhain control - anyone think of any reason NOT to go with grob/hh?

    would most likely go with an automation system, and i believe they'd all be roughly in the same price ballpark of 650k or so.

    anyway, looking forward to Cameraman's unique insight

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    so i'm starting at a new place on monday as the shop manager/programming lead/partner. one of my responsibilities here will be to bring the shop up to the current century technology wise (mostly haas mills, 3 axis and a umc500 - yuck, as well as some doosan mill turns)
    have some complex jobs coming up that will require a top notch machine capable of cutting inco as well as aluminum and anything in between. i have personal experience with Mikron (mill e 700) and Hermle (C12) and both have been great experiences.
    i've heard nothing but good things about Grob, and i gotta admit the layout is very appealing to me. would want it with Heideinhain control - anyone think of any reason NOT to go with grob/hh?

    would most likely go with an automation system, and i believe they'd all be roughly in the same price ballpark of 650k or so.

    anyway, looking forward to Cameraman's unique insight

    'sup,

    Grob G350 ?

    I plead the "Fifth" / "No comment", but maybe best you visit their plant in Ohio before making a decision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    'sup,

    Grob G350 ?

    I plead the "Fifth" / "No comment", but maybe best you visit their plant in Ohio before making a decision.
    Don’t come to Ohio, you’ll get hooked on heroin

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    @Empwoer BTW congrats on your new position !

    (Sounds very interesting + line up of machines , past and going forward ~ Nice ! ).


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    Well, Grob is a LOT closer to me that Blob, and I have yet to git hooked on anything beyond Mtn. Dew, so it may be safer up here in the cloudy north?

    Have you watched the shop tour video?

    Exclusive GROB Tour: Built in the USA - YouTube



    ------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Well, Grob is a LOT closer to me that Blob, and I have yet to git hooked on anything beyond Mtn. Dew, so it may be safer up here in the cloudy north?

    Have you watched the shop tour video?

    Exclusive GROB Tour: Built in the USA - YouTube



    ------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    i have, part of the reason its under consideration. very impressive organization they got there!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    'sup,

    Grob G350 ?

    I plead the "Fifth" / "No comment", but maybe best you visit their plant in Ohio before making a decision.
    damn, you're slacking! i was hoping for your typical detailed breakdown! :P

    thanks for the well wishes bud!

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    Default Paging Cameraman: Grob G350 vs Hermle C32 vs Mikron Mill P500

    One comment I've seen posted a few times about these types of machines (very high end) is that they like specialized spindles and sort of lack a generalist option with good speeds at the high end and torque at the low end. I think the DMG Mori SpeedMaster 20k spindle has been used as an example of a really good generalist spindle.

    I mention this because you mention cutting inco and alu and everything in between. It might be good to look at spindle options and use that as one of the deciding factors, since every one of these MTBs has a stellar reputation.

    Edit: by that criteria, I think the Mikron might be ahead? Plus you have experience with it already...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mutiny View Post
    One comment I've seen posted a few times about these types of machines (very high end) is that they like specialized spindles and sort of lack a generalist option with good speeds at the high end and torque at the low end. I think the DMG Mori SpeedMaster 20k spindle has been used as an example of a really good generalist spindle.

    I mention this because you mention cutting inco and alu and everything in between. It might be good to look at spindle options and use that as one of the deciding factors, since every one of these MTBs has a stellar reputation.

    Edit: by that criteria, I think the Mikron might be ahead? Plus you have experience with it already...
    the hermle spindle is no slouch either from my experience. no personal experience with Grob, but from what my friends say, its well up to task.
    couldnt pay me enough to look into DMG. fuck those guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    damn, you're slacking! i was hoping for your typical detailed breakdown! :P

    thanks for the well wishes bud!
    I researched the snot out of the machines,[+ Read every scrap of downloadable / online information they have in English and German from products to company history.]. ~ worked through some of the engineering relevant to our applications / needs .

    hit a roadblock with sales,

    X-DMG-Mori BTW; but oddly and in contrary fashion - very clumsy, kack-handed and manipulative/ near deaf approach to sales [not a problem for me as I listen very carefully.]. ~ And not a problem for them if that's their "Jam" ~ (I think they were more interested in scoring new contacts within different sectors that they don't normally sell to esp. or in part with the newer G150 - / seemed slightly desperate - but understandable with Covid-19; + perceived and actual problems in civilian aerospace. ).]. <--- At that time, obviously some of that is still ongoing.

    In more general and abstract terms (theoretically for many integrated MTBs/vendors) there's an interesting prerogative and relationship between a given head of sales and what gets built on a smaller production line of a finite capacity (obviously). [Not really a conflict of interest per se ] but sales indirectly controls what gets built or influences how their US production line gets tied up for a substantial period of time for each new build and anything that is ("Over capacity") has to come from Germany [Again middle of Covid / bit dicey/ understandable.]. Ideally sales would not like to tie up their production line with a lower / relatively minimally specc'd machine versus a configuration of machine that a sales individual can make more money on. Which is understandable if said sales people are being paid a LOW base rate/ moderate salary. So (perhaps in their eyes at that time) - best to keep lower end orders/ clients at arms length to buy time to pick up higher end (more lucrative) orders from more "up-scale" clients - preferably very well connected in newer sectors that they can break into, sell into and also scale with. [No judgement- business is business.]. The corollary to that ALSO is that the much more higher specc'd machines work long term as a better more reliable system vs. a more minimally specc'd machine (seemingly/apparently). There's that as well. In some cases sales are not being "Greedy" for themselves or for the company but they know which configurations and models work better long term and which models historically have not fared so well. The Ohio plant is run along the lines of a very German mindset that is indeed worker focused and much is oriented to and for the welfare of workers (at scale and number) plus young journeymen that are being trained there virtually from scratch;( all very good and socially oriented - even literal free lunches and cafeteria ) ~ However that has a flattening or leveling effect of "pay scale" for some and also makes the machines more expensive (which is fine also depending on your "Value system".). It's interesting to see how that German model and mindset works on US soil (where in Germany the state provides much more support across the board as compared to the USA). Grob has large plants throughout the world China (+ China / Taiwan for castings (maybe ?)), Brazil, Italy and of course Germany.


    Not going to dissect the engineering as that would probably be relatively pointless.



    That's why I say go to Ohio check it out for yourself (dooo the leg work), probably Siemens control is going to be their main strength. But get a feel or read on the organization and whether you think they are a good fit as a business partner for your shop-owner and employer + how you might want to grow etc. + remote maintenance if you are out of state for them.

    Probably what you want with Grob will be at or north of $1M.

    I think their real strength is quasi customized LARGE automated manufacturing systems comprising of scores of machines and robotic palletized systems running up and down on "train tracks" on a pretty massive scale. That customization and scale is what sets them apart on US soil. At least that's my "Read" :-).
    Last edited by cameraman; 07-09-2021 at 05:45 PM. Reason: Taiwan + clarity

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    I researched the snot out of the machines,[+ Read every scrap of downloadable / online information they have in English and German from products to company history.]. ~ worked through some of the engineering relevant to our applications / needs .

    hit a roadblock with sales,

    X-DMG-Mori BTW; but oddly and in contrary fashion - very clumsy, kack-handed and manipulative/ near deaf approach to sales [not a problem for me as I listen very carefully.]. ~ And not a problem for them if that's their "Jam" ~ (I think they were more interested in scoring new contacts within different sectors that they don't normally sell to esp. or in part with the newer G150 - / seemed slightly desperate - but understandable with Covid-19; + perceived and actual problems in civilian aerospace. ).]. <--- At that time, obviously some of that is still ongoing.

    In more general and abstract terms (theoretically for many integrated MTBs/vendors) there's an interesting prerogative and relationship between a given head of sales and what gets built on a smaller production line of a finite capacity (obviously). [Not really a conflict of interest per se ] but sales indirectly controls what gets built or influences how their US production line gets tied up for a substantial period of time for each new build and anything that is ("Over capacity") has to come from Germany [Again middle of Covid / bit dicey/ understandable.]. Ideally sales would not like to tie up their production line with a lower / relatively minimally specc'd machine versus a configuration of machine that a sales individual can make more money on. Which is understandable if said sales people are being paid a LOW base rate/ moderate salary. So best to keep lower end orders/ clients at arms length to buy time to pick up higher end (more lucrative) orders from more "up-scale" clients - preferably very well connected in newer sectors that they can break into, sell into and also scale with. [No judgement- business is business.]. The corollary to that ALSO is that the much more higher specc'd machines work long term as a better more reliable system vs. a more minimally specc'd machine (seemingly/apparently). There's that as well. In some cases sales are not being "Greedy" for themselves or for the company but they know which configurations and models work better long term and which models historically have not fared so well. The Ohio plant is run along the lines of a very German mindset that is indeed worker focused and much is oriented to and for the welfare of workers (at scale and number) plus young journeymen that are being trained there virtually from scratch;( all very good and socially oriented - even literal free lunches and cafeteria ) ~ However that has a flattening or leveling effect of "pay scale" for some and also makes the machines more expensive (which is fine also depending on your "Value system".). It's interesting to see how that German model and mindset works on US soil (where in Germany the state provides much more support across the board as compared to the USA). Grob has large plants throughout the world China (+ China / Taiwan for castings (maybe ?)), Brazil, Italy and of course Germany.


    Not going to dissect the engineering as that would probably be relatively pointless.



    That's why I say go to Ohio check it out for yourself (dooo the leg work), probably Siemens control is going to be their main strength. But get a feel or read on the organization and whether you think they are a good fit as a business partner for your shop-owner and employer + how you might want to grow etc. + remote maintenance if you are out of state for them.

    Probably what you want with Grob will be at or north of $1M.

    I think their real strength is quasi customized LARGE automated manufacturing systems comprising of scores of machines and robotic palletized systems running up and down on "train tracks" on a pretty massive scale. That customization and scale is what sets them apart on US soil. At least that's my "Read" :-).
    you were pretty spot on with the $.
    thank you for talking with me today. I would like to stop by the week of the 19th to see the application and go thru the Grob in greater detail. To answer a couple of you questions.

    G350 with Siemens is roughly 6 month delivery
    G350 with Heindenheim 1 machine available in August
    G350 with Siemens and turning 2 machine available in August
    Automation for the above is roughly 5 month delivery
    Ballpark numbers on a G350 W/ Automation is $800,000 to $1,000.000

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    PM member dstryr has four Grobs. I trust his judgement.

    The horizontal spindle and the ability to flip the pallet upside down will make a noticeable difference in chip evac and automation reliability. That would be the tie breaker if I were buying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Vise View Post
    PM member dstryr has four Grobs. I trust his judgement.

    The horizontal spindle and the ability to flip the pallet upside down will make a noticeable difference in chip evac and automation reliability. That would be the tie breaker if I were buying.
    yup, i've been friends with Dennis for a few years

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    so i'm starting at a new place on monday as the shop manager/programming lead/partner. one of my responsibilities here will be to bring the shop up to the current century technology wise (mostly haas mills, 3 axis and a umc500 - yuck, as well as some doosan mill turns)
    have some complex jobs coming up that will require a top notch machine capable of cutting inco as well as aluminum and anything in between. i have personal experience with Mikron (mill e 700) and Hermle (C12) and both have been great experiences.
    i've heard nothing but good things about Grob, and i gotta admit the layout is very appealing to me. would want it with Heideinhain control - anyone think of any reason NOT to go with grob/hh?

    would most likely go with an automation system, and i believe they'd all be roughly in the same price ballpark of 650k or so.

    anyway, looking forward to Cameraman's unique insight
    Ok let's make this a little more interesting :-) Maybe stress test a few things (in a good / constructive way.).


    So a quasi-useful barrage of dumb questions from me.

    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    so i'm starting at a new place on monday as the shop manager/programming lead/partner.
    ^^^ So that's super interesting. (As I confided) - my "Spidey senses" / "vibe" or sense that you'd be hopping to a new job (maybe better / newer pastures) ?

    When you say "Partner" is that programming partner or business partner or both ?

    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    one of my responsibilities here will be to bring the shop up to the current century technology wise (mostly haas mills, 3 axis and a umc500 - yuck, as well as some doosan mill turns)
    That's very interesting - the Doosan mill turns are they B axis / 5 axis mill turns or 4 axis MSY type machines ?

    Is the plan to get rid of everything? what do you anticipate that you will be needing to keep ?


    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    have some complex jobs coming up that will require a top notch machine capable of cutting inco as well as aluminum and anything in between.
    Are these prismatic (structural) parts or precision mechanical parts / machine parts - how much contouring is there that leans into near mold-work type surfaces ? How much of that is your new company's bread and butter ?

    Any idea of tolerances or critical referenced features ?

    Is 5 axis mill-turn a consideration or largely irrelevant ?

    Is there a need for inspection department / CMM type of thing ? [If you don't have an inspection room etc. ]. ?


    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    would want it with Heideinhain
    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    G350 with Siemens is roughly 6 month delivery
    G350 with Heindenheim 1 machine available in August
    G350 with Siemens and turning 2 machine available in August
    Automation for the above is roughly 5 month delivery
    Ballpark numbers on a G350 W/ Automation is $800,000 to $1,000.000
    The second block ^^^ I guess cut and pasted from a text or email from your sales person.


    Bit like the ice bucket challenge I dare people to spell HEIDENHAIN properly.

    Those German vowel combinations are tricky for English speakers.

    HE - as in "He"

    I - as in "I"

    DEN - as in "He's watching TV in the DEN."

    "HA" - as in "hahaha"

    "IN" - as in "in up to his eyeballs in ..."

    1/2 arsed/(assed) mnemonic ^^^ for spelling. Pronunciation being more Hi-den-(high-nnnn) not "Hi-den-hay-n"

    ~ No judgement I used to think HERMLE was pronounced Hermole... Not Hermlay or Hermlehh or chchchcHouuerrrrmlehhhhh

    Given that you really dig that control worth first day on the job to spell it right from the start (if that's what you are confidently asking for esp. as it's the more 'Spendy" option on some machines with an additionally corresponding spindle.).

    I know I'm nit picking but comes from being ADD and Dyslexic and having had a German very old school father. He maintained that Germans think that people including foreigners that make grammatical and spelling mistakes with their language are total morons. German is easier to spell correctly than English IMO but the grammar can be a near partial nightmare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Ok let's make this a little more interesting :-) Maybe stress test a few things (in a good / constructive way.).


    So a quasi-useful barrage of dumb questions from me.



    ^^^ So that's super interesting. (As I confided) - my "Spidey senses" / "vibe" or sense that you'd be hopping to a new job (maybe better / newer pastures) ?

    When you say "Partner" is that programming partner or business partner or both ?

    it seems like it will be a better pasture! time will tell... business partner. intent is for me to mostly handle the day to day operations and allow my partner to grow the client base etc

    That's very interesting - the Doosan mill turns are they B axis / 5 axis mill turns or 4 axis MSY type machines ?

    Is the plan to get rid of everything? what do you anticipate that you will be needing to keep ?


    4 axis MSY type. i dont see a reason to get rid of them, ideally phase out the haas stuff over time as the budget allows.

    Are these prismatic (structural) parts or precision mechanical parts / machine parts - how much contouring is there that leans into near mold-work type surfaces ? How much of that is your new company's bread and butter ? seeing as we're a job shop, its gonna be a combination of all of the above, currently a lot of structural parts

    Any idea of tolerances or critical referenced features ? most of the stuff i imagine will be in the .001 range, with a healthy mix of .0001" parts which will be really fun!

    Is 5 axis mill-turn a consideration or largely irrelevant ? not at this point

    Is there a need for inspection department / CMM type of thing ? [If you don't have an inspection room etc. ]. ?


    we have a very modest inspection room/cmm, will grow as needed



    The second block ^^^ I guess cut and pasted from a text or email from your sales person.


    Bit like the ice bucket challenge I dare people to spell HEIDENHAIN properly.

    Those German vowel combinations are tricky for English speakers.

    HE - as in "He"

    I - as in "I"

    DEN - as in "He's watching TV in the DEN."

    "HA" - as in "hahaha"

    "IN" - as in "in up to his eyeballs in ..."

    1/2 arsed/(assed) mnemonic ^^^ for spelling. Pronunciation being more Hi-den-(high-nnnn) not "Hi-den-hay-n"

    ~ No judgement I used to think HERMLE was pronounced Hermole... Not Hermlay or Hermlehh or chchchcHouuerrrrmlehhhhh

    Given that you really dig that control worth first day on the job to spell it right from the start (if that's what you are confidently asking for esp. as it's the more 'Spendy" option on some machines with an additionally corresponding spindle.).

    I know I'm nit picking but comes from being ADD and Dyslexic and having had a German very old school father. He maintained that Germans think that people including foreigners that make grammatical and spelling mistakes with their language are total morons. German is easier to spell correctly than English IMO but the grammar can be a near partial nightmare.
    haha, well its a bit easier for me since i learned german in highschool... the GF rep is new so i'll forgive him :P
    and yeah, i've explained and showed my partner the differences between controls on parts i've made, the proof is in the pudding, makes it a much easier sell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    haha, well its a bit easier for me since i learned german in highschool... the GF rep is new so i'll forgive him :P
    and yeah, i've explained and showed my partner the differences between controls on parts i've made, the proof is in the pudding, makes it a much easier sell.
    So the GF rep sells / represents GROB as well ?

    not a Grob_GF 200 - "Fighter" plane.

    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    you were pretty spot on with the $.


    >>>>>


    thank you for talking with me today. I would like to stop by the week of the 19th to see the application and go thru the Grob in greater detail. To answer a couple of you questions.

    G350 with Siemens is roughly 6 month delivery
    G350 with Heindenheim 1 machine available in August
    G350 with Siemens and turning 2 machine available in August
    Automation for the above is roughly 5 month delivery
    Ballpark numbers on a G350 W/ Automation is $800,000 to $1,000.000


    >>>>>
    ^^^ That's from the Grob rep as well... cut and pasted ?

    I think that's your point that neither GF nor the GROB rep can actually spell Heidenhain,

    As you know Hermle and Heidenhain have a very tight and parallel development relationship spanning many years. [although the drives on the backside are SIEMENS.].

    Seems Grob is very strong on Siemens - probably the BEST at Siemens in the USA (I reckon) in terms of integration and support.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    So the GF rep sells / represents GROB as well ?

    not a Grob_GF 200 - "Fighter" plane.



    ^^^ That's from the Grob rep as well... cut and pasted ?

    I think that's your point that neither GF nor the GROB rep can actually spell Heidenhain,

    As you know Hermle and Heidenhain have a very tight and parallel development relationship spanning many years. [although the drives on the backside are SIEMENS.].

    Seems Grob is very strong on Siemens - probably the BEST at Siemens in the USA (I reckon) in terms of integration and support.
    pardon me, Grob rep. i pretty much got a heat stroke today from moving in 100* heat...

    grob rep told me they build 80% of their machines with siemens control, 15% with Heidenhain and 5% with fanuc.

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    Cm: When you say "Partner" is that programming partner or business partner or both ?

    Ep: it seems like it will be a better pasture! time will tell... business partner. intent is for me to mostly handle the day to day operations and allow my partner to grow the client base etc

    Cm: That's very interesting - the Doosan mill turns are they B axis / 5 axis mill turns or 4 axis MSY type machines ?

    Cm: Is the plan to get rid of everything? what do you anticipate that you will be needing to keep ?


    Ep: 4 axis MSY type. i dont see a reason to get rid of them, ideally phase out the haas stuff over time as the budget allows.

    Cm: Are these prismatic (structural) parts or precision mechanical parts / machine parts - how much contouring is there that leans into near mold-work type surfaces ? How much of that is your new company's bread and butter ? seeing as we're a job shop, its gonna be a combination of all of the above, currently a lot of structural parts

    Cm: Any idea of tolerances or critical referenced features ?

    Ep: most of the stuff i imagine will be in the .001 range, with a healthy
    mix of .0001" parts which will be really fun!


    Cm: Is 5 axis mill-turn a consideration or largely irrelevant ? not at this point

    Is there a need for inspection department / CMM type of thing ? [If you don't have an inspection room etc. ]. ?


    Ep: we have a very modest inspection room/cmm, will grow as needed



    ________________________________

    I had a little think.

    I don't normally "Shill" for Doosan,

    but given what you have described so far in terms of scope of work, tolerances, materials and application and various goals for the business ,+ specifically Inconel,

    Maybe check out the Doosan DVF 6500 or DVF 5000 - both universals and both have the possibility of spindle options with a bit of grunt, and the possibility of the Heidenhain control. Apparently these can have scales now ~ that wasn't the case before.


    In the case of Dennis - only an impression, but instead of going to university and getting an engineering degree or putting himself into $400K worth of student debt, seems the mindset was to put that into diligent study and time set aside for said diligent and patient self training. + Some good iron to work with in a progressive way. Really dig deep on 5 axis programming with NX and marrying that up with an on going and deeper understanding of tool types especially with more advanced profiles - lens, or pencil or barrel and so on + very specific cutting conditions and tool paths that really make sense. That is IMO -(limited as it is) - what is really needed to get the most out of the GROB G350 and it's sisters, as there are certain ways of programming that play to the strengths of the machine and appropriately developed processes for a longer run of a given set of high value parts and contract(s). Again only an impression but I think Dennis of "@dstryr" fame has put at least 5 years of diligent study (while on the job and working / family business) and application to that [really set aside time for that - almost every day - I don't know how early he gets up in the morning :-) .]. So in his "Brain" and to his finger tips and mind's eye and sense of tooling he can pull off "High-mix/ low volume" in a relatively deft fashion and highly efficient and appropriate way for the Grob 350, as well as other advanced and more specialized machines. All on going.

    Why do I bring that up ? ~ The machines that you have cited have one key difference and that is in essence their individual and respective 'Crashability",

    The Mikron P 500 U (five axis machine) having faaaar more comprehensive practicable crash prevention , but IMO leans more into finer surface finish work / mold work / 5 axis mold work.

    The Hermle C32 - great work volume really excellent all rounder IMO, and their automation systems are pretty damn sexy and simple. They have crash-bushings 50% chance of making it out of a bad-ish crash. [Advise, training and application support is easy / very "present" with Hermle.].

    The Grob G350 has it's roots more in automotive and in a sense / consequently has been designed for large scale automotive work in parallel "cells"; but for programming I would allow at least 3 years to get the better of it and take it really slowly to begin with as I'm not sure that the G350 is that forgiving of various crashes (maybe I'm wrong there ) ? Obviously programing and simulation beyond Fusion 360 (as you know )... So in my mind that would be a concern for how long you need to get up to speed on the Grob Platform to actually make money with it ~ not sure what spindle replacement runs to ?

    __________________________________________________ ________________________


    If I was in your position; given that the shop has to make money and hit the ground running I'd probably go DOOSAN DVF 6500 (Heidenhain + scales) BEEFY spindle (higher torque at lower RPMS) and maybe a DOOSAN B axis (5 axis) mill-turn - smaller (bar fed) machine [I know that's not your thing @Empwoer]. [My impression of the DOOSAN mill turns is that they are not as precise as their MAZAK counterparts but that's only from nebulous anecdotal info - which is "Not" really data and things improve all the time. ~ In the sense of hitting the ground running and then making actually GOOD $ so you can then buy a Grob or Mikron etc. next round for your new machines when you figure out where the value of what you offer really lies and respond to more current markets that in not insubstantial measure - don't quite exist yet. I.e. newer emerging markets that have not hit their stride yet but become more obvious four years from now plus others that are very new and not really on anyone's "Radar".
    Last edited by cameraman; 07-13-2021 at 08:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Cm: When you say "Partner" is that programming partner or business partner or both ?

    Ep: it seems like it will be a better pasture! time will tell... business partner. intent is for me to mostly handle the day to day operations and allow my partner to grow the client base etc

    Cm: That's very interesting - the Doosan mill turns are they B axis / 5 axis mill turns or 4 axis MSY type machines ?

    Cm: Is the plan to get rid of everything? what do you anticipate that you will be needing to keep ?


    Ep: 4 axis MSY type. i dont see a reason to get rid of them, ideally phase out the haas stuff over time as the budget allows.

    Cm: Are these prismatic (structural) parts or precision mechanical parts / machine parts - how much contouring is there that leans into near mold-work type surfaces ? How much of that is your new company's bread and butter ? seeing as we're a job shop, its gonna be a combination of all of the above, currently a lot of structural parts

    Cm: Any idea of tolerances or critical referenced features ?

    Ep: most of the stuff i imagine will be in the .001 range, with a healthy
    mix of .0001" parts which will be really fun!


    Cm: Is 5 axis mill-turn a consideration or largely irrelevant ? not at this point

    Is there a need for inspection department / CMM type of thing ? [If you don't have an inspection room etc. ]. ?


    Ep: we have a very modest inspection room/cmm, will grow as needed



    ________________________________

    I had a little think.

    I don't normally "Shill" for Doosan,

    but given what you have described so far in terms of scope of work, tolerances, materials and application and various goals for the business ,+ specifically Inconel,

    Maybe check out the Doosan DVF 6500 or DVF 5000 - both universals and both have the possibility of spindle options with a bit of grunt, and the possibility of the Heidenhain control. Apparently these can have scales now ~ that wasn't the case before.


    In the case of Dennis - only an impression, but instead of going to university and getting an engineering degree or putting himself into $400K worth of student debt, seems the mindset was to put that into diligent study and time set aside for said diligent and patient self training. + Some good iron to work with in a progressive way. Really dig deep on 5 axis programming with NX and marrying that up with an on going and deeper understanding of tool types especially with more advanced profiles - lens, or pencil or barrel and so on + very specific cutting conditions and tool paths that really make sense. That is IMO -(limited as it is) - what is really needed to get the most out of the GROB G350 and it's sisters, as there are certain ways of programming that play to the strengths of the machine and appropriately developed processes for a longer run of a given set of high value parts and contract(s). Again only an impression but I think Dennis of "@dstryr" fame has put at least 5 years of diligent study (while on the job and working / family business) and application to that [really set aside time for that - almost every day - I don't know how early he gets up in the morning :-) .]. So in his "Brain" and to his finger tips and mind's eye and sense of tooling he can pull off "High-mix/ low volume" in a relatively deft fashion and highly efficient and appropriate way for the Grob 350, as well as other advanced and more specialized machines. All on going.

    Why do I bring that up ? ~ The machines that you have cited have one key different and that is in essence their individual and respective 'Crashability",

    The Mikron P 500 U (five axis machine) having faaaar more comprehensive practicable crash prevention , but IMO leans more into finer surface finish work / mold work / 5 axis mold work.

    The Hermle C32 - great work volume really excellent all rounder IMO, and their automation systems are pretty damn sexy and simple. They have crash-bushings 50% chance of making it out of a bad-ish crash. [Advise, training and application support is easy / very "present" with Hermle.].

    The Grob G350 has it's roots more in automotive and in a sense / consequently has been designed for large scale automotive work in parallel "cells"; but for programming I would allow at least 3 years to get the better of it and take it really slowly to begin with as I'm not sure that the G350 is that forgiving of various crashes (maybe I'm wrong there ) ? Obviously programing and simulation beyond Fusion 360 (as you know )... So in my mind that would be a concern for how long you need to get up to speed on the Grob Platform to actually make money with it ~ not sure what spindle replacement runs to ?

    __________________________________________________ ________________________


    If I was in your position; given that the shop has to make money and hit the ground running I'd probably go DOOSAN DVF 6500 (Heidenhain + scales) BEEFY spindle (higher torque at lower RPMS) and maybe a DOOSAN B axis (5 axis) mill-turn - smaller (bar fed) machine [I know that's not your thing @Empwoer]. [My impression of the DOOSAN mill turns is that they are not as precise as their MAZAK counterparts but that's only from nebulous anecdotal info - which is "Not" really data and things improve all the time. ~ In the sense of hitting the ground running and then making actually GOOD $ so you can then buy a Grob or Mikron etc. next round for your new machines when you figure out where the value of what you offer really lies and respond to more current markets that in not insubstantial measure - don't quite exist yet. I.e. newer emerging markets that have not hit their stride yet but become more obvious four years from now plus others that are very new and not really on anyone's "Radar".
    ya, Dennis is the man, and is doing a lot of things right, hats off to him no doubt.
    Doosan is not really on our radar, the fact that HH is a tiny fraction of what they do does not instill confidence in reliability and support just due to the fact that they dont have a lot of experience with it.

    as of now, we're leaning more towards G350 or Mill P500.
    simulation wont be an issue, we will be getting NX with full sim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    ya, Dennis is the man, and is doing a lot of things right, hats off to him no doubt.
    Doosan is not really on our radar, the fact that HH is a tiny fraction of what they do does not instill confidence in reliability and support just due to the fact that they dont have a lot of experience with it.

    as of now, we're leaning more towards G350 or Mill P500.
    simulation wont be an issue, we will be getting NX with full sim.
    Aye,

    I think @Locknut and one other AE's at DOOSAN know Heidenhain ?

    And you know Heidenhain as well , I was thinking two different machines + enhanced automation vs. one.

    But that's more from a sheer making money point of view rather than having to find work for a $1M single machine.

    that's all.

    You have a better sense of what you have time for (of course).

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