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Picking out first new machine. Anyone have experince with Ellison in NC?

D

Djstorm100

Cast Iron
Joined
Jul 26, 2014
Location
Richmond
Hey Guys.

Short story:
-Bought a Tormach 2 years ago, self taught
-I have 3 products that sell well but I do get a lot of side jobs.
-Tbout 75% of the side jobs I can' do because of 1) accuracy 2) can't fit it in my work envelope to make any money.
-Tightest tolerance for my product is 0.002 and it's a profile. Took me a while to dial this in on the tormach but it's still a long process of using tool compensation.

It’s going to come down to Haas VF2/3ss or Doosan Dnm 4500s/5700:
S

Long story:
I've reach point where I can pay for a machine in full. I had my heart on Haas because it's what I can hit the ground running. However a 86k bill for a VF2 stings...a lot. However a friend, who I respect greatly, told me to look at Doosan.

For the list price being the same, Monday I'm talking hard numbers, it's hard not to choose the Doosan over the Haas. Material I cut is brass & alum. The job work I get is mostly alum but some steel. Doosan is no doubt more capable at cutting steel/exoitc more efficiently. I just started to think of making a few of my products in titanium and other materials that I now would be able to cut, on either Haas or Doosan.

I'm looking at a DNM 4500s..Although I've honestly though about spending the extra money and getting a 5700s (I have the space for it and power)


I hear good and bad about Phillips (HFO) and Ellison, however I hear more bad about Ellison as a whole. This is a big leap for me and I'm nervous and want to make sure I do this right. Tooling I already have spec'ed out. Over head is extremely low.

Anyone in the NC area deal with Ellison on the service/repair side. I know cost of owner ship is higher with the Doosan, however their service life is long than a Haas. So it seems like it balances it out. I'm not running my machine (or the new one) fast as it will go. But efficiently and effective. You don't go stop light to stop light in a care with throttle pegged to the floor.


Any other advice you guys care to share I like to hear it.
 
I can tell you that the Doosan will make you happy. The 4500 is a great machine, but for the extra dollars, the 5700 gives a much better table for the money.

As for Ellison, it's a toss. I knew a few folk there and they try very hard for the customers.
 
Stay away from phillips. They are so bad that I wont ever let them into my building again.... I'm in a little more unique situation of course but I purchased another small building in another state just to take delivery of new haas machines, install, then box it all back up and move to the facility where we are and do the real install ourselves... Thats how bad we hate phillips.
 
Personally I'd go with the Haas, but I'm biased. Much easier control and will do whatever you need it to do, especially in brass and aluminium. Take the extra money you save and get proper tooling and whatnot.
 
plastikdreams said:
Personally I'd go with the Haas, but I'm biased. Much easier control and will do whatever you need it to do, especially in brass and aluminium. Take the extra money you save and get proper tooling and whatnot.
Click to expand...

Machines cost around the same. Cost is wash
I don’t own a Haas just have a few hours on them. Will have to learn either controller. Next week I’m running a job on a Doosan to get full idea of the control
Both machines have
TSC
TSA
Multi chip auger/conveyor
Wired for 4th
Probe/TS
HSM
15k (Doosan)
12k (Hass)
Missing item
 
as9100d said:
Stay away from phillips. They are so bad that I wont ever let them into my building again.... I'm in a little more unique situation of course but I purchased another small building in another state just to take delivery of new haas machines, install, then box it all back up and move to the facility where we are and do the real install ourselves... Thats how bad we hate phillips.
Click to expand...

That’s a whole new level of “f you”
 
plastikdreams said:
Personally I'd go with the Haas, but I'm biased. Much easier control and will do whatever you need it to do, especially in brass and aluminium. Take the extra money you save and get proper tooling and whatnot.
Click to expand...
We hate the fanuc control. Just got a smoking deal on buying a bunch of new robodrills in one shot.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
 
I have no idea how Ellison is back in NC ,, but if there anything like out her is seattle area I would run like hell from them ..
I had a DNM5700 and it was a nice machine but the support from Ellison was just not there ,, After 8 months I had to get them to pull it out of my shop , Even something as simple as fixing a coolant pump they could not and would not fix ... The 2200LSYC turning center was the same deal .. I ordered the turning center and the bar feeder from them and it "NEVER" feed a single part ... After months of trying to get them to fix it I had them buy it back and remove it .........

I am not saying doosan builds bad machines but there support from there dealer out here in seattle is crap .. and when I reached out to Doosan USA for help they did "NOTHING" to help.. one would have thought when someone called Doosan USA and explaned what was going on with one of there dealers they would have got to the bottom of it and over seen that the customer got his machine fixed after "MONTHS" of trying to deal with Ellison ...

FYI
I have been told that the local Ellison dealer fired all but two guys and its looking like there going under. Doosan all ready changed dealers a few years ago and I have a feeling there going to be pulling away from Ellison before long ...

Haas has a good package deals going on this week ,,
 
Both are good machines all around, It's just the small things that steer me more towards the Haas over the Doosan. I'm not sure where you got the $86K for the Haas but that's way off unless you took about every option they offer. The base price for the VF2-SS is $64K. Add probing, Programmable coolant nozzle, 4th interface, HSM, and Chip conveyor the list is $77K before the standard Haas 10% discount (Sometimes 15%) so basically $69K for a very capable machine.

As far as Philips goes? Never had one problem out of them in USA, China, Vietnam, and Mumbai. If I drop a spindle at 5PM Thursday there's a van with a new one at the shop the next morning. On occasion you will get a guy that's not happy with them but I'll take their service over any other distributor. Ellison is a great company and has great techs, the only problem I have noticed is if you need them it may take a few days. When Mori dropped them as a distributor they still had to honor their service commitments. That, plus now having to service and install Doosan put a burden on the techs workload.

It's the small overlooked things that need to kept in mind when comparing the two. Yes the Doosan is a heavier machine with LM style roller trucks while the Haas is HSR-35, A little bit different design but the LM is slightly more rigid. This can be well noticed on HSM finishes on the floor of a part big time as you can see in the part below. But,,, After a conversation with Ken Pots from Haas a few weeks ago next year will bring some serious changes for Haas structurally. With the introduction of the 400 foot pound torque 60HP spindle option they realized its time to ad some meat. Their changing to a heavier casting and going to HSR-45 trucks and rails plus a few more odds and ends. Not sure what your time frame to purchase is but the new stuff sounds like it will be nice.

The Doosan gives you the 15k standard spindle while Haas only has 12k standard. You say you are doing aluminum and brass so at first glance that 15k Doosan looks like the best choice until you look at the torque charts. Both machines peak at just above 86 FT pounds but the Doosan drops to 38.7 continuous while the Haas only drops to 64 FT pounds. It becomes a preferential trade of at that point. Do you use mostly small tools that don't need all the torque but yet need the extra 3k rpm's? Or, do you sometimes need to hog some material to the point you need that torque. One could argue if that's the case then upgrade to the Siemens High torque 43HP 150 FT pounds on the Doosan But then again I think that option is about $30K since you swap controls also (Granted I like the 840D better than the Fanuc). But then again the Haas now offers the 60HP 400 Ft pound 50 taper spindle for only $9k.

And taking a look at the controls. I just don't like fiddle farting around with Fanuc's extra key strokes to do simple task. Haas has simplified everything from loading a program to the VQC probing macros. everything is right there where you need it. Fanuc's strong point is in 20 years you will still be able to get parts to where Haas will surely have phased out the NGC control in favor of new technology.

Haas torque chart: 12,000-rpm Spindle

Doosan Torque Chart: http://www.misol.co.jp/doosan/MachiningCenter/DNM-ENG-series.pdf

Haas VF2 floor chatter:
haas part.jpg
 
g-coder05 said:
Both are good machines all around, It's just the small things that steer me more towards the Haas over the Doosan. I'm not sure where you got the $86K for the Haas but that's way off unless you took about every option they offer. The base price for the VF2-SS is $64K. Add probing, Programmable coolant nozzle, 4th interface, HSM, and Chip conveyor the list is $77K before the standard Haas 10% discount (Sometimes 15%) so basically $69K for a very capable machine.

As far as Philips goes? Never had one problem out of them in USA, China, Vietnam, and Mumbai. If I drop a spindle at 5PM Thursday there's a van with a new one at the shop the next morning. On occasion you will get a guy that's not happy with them but I'll take their service over any other distributor. Ellison is a great company and has great techs, the only problem I have noticed is if you need them it may take a few days. When Mori dropped them as a distributor they still had to honor their service commitments. That, plus now having to service and install Doosan put a burden on the techs workload.

It's the small overlooked things that need to kept in mind when comparing the two. Yes the Doosan is a heavier machine with LM style roller trucks while the Haas is HSR-35, A little bit different design but the LM is slightly more rigid. This can be well noticed on HSM finishes on the floor of a part big time as you can see in the part below. But,,, After a conversation with Ken Pots from Haas a few weeks ago next year will bring some serious changes for Haas structurally. With the introduction of the 400 foot pound torque 60HP spindle option they realized its time to ad some meat. Their changing to a heavier casting and going to HSR-45 trucks and rails plus a few more odds and ends. Not sure what your time frame to purchase is but the new stuff sounds like it will be nice.

The Doosan gives you the 15k standard spindle while Haas only has 12k standard. You say you are doing aluminum and brass so at first glance that 15k Doosan looks like the best choice until you look at the torque charts. Both machines peak at just above 86 FT pounds but the Doosan drops to 38.7 continuous while the Haas only drops to 64 FT pounds. It becomes a preferential trade of at that point. Do you use mostly small tools that don't need all the torque but yet need the extra 3k rpm's? Or, do you sometimes need to hog some material to the point you need that torque. One could argue if that's the case then upgrade to the Siemens High torque 43HP 150 FT pounds on the Doosan But then again I think that option is about $30K since you swap controls also (Granted I like the 840D better than the Fanuc). But then again the Haas now offers the 60HP 400 Ft pound 50 taper spindle for only $9k.

And taking a look at the controls. I just don't like fiddle farting around with Fanuc's extra key strokes to do simple task. Haas has simplified everything from loading a program to the VQC probing macros. everything is right there where you need it. Fanuc's strong point is in 20 years you will still be able to get parts to where Haas will surely have phased out the NGC control in favor of new technology.

Haas torque chart: 12,000-rpm Spindle

Doosan Torque Chart: http://www.misol.co.jp/doosan/MachiningCenter/DNM-ENG-series.pdf

Haas VF2 floor chatter:
View attachment 271272
Click to expand...

Just to add, the haas 12k can be opened up to 15k with a code from the hfo. We are contemplating this at work.
 
I haven't ran a haas in 10 years but I have ran a lot of FANUC controls in that time period. The time spent in the control is such a small piece of the puzzle, so I would trade a beefier machine for a "inferior control". I don't know what's so difficult about loading programs on a FANUC though as was giving as an example. Edit, program, change device, usb, arrow to program, f-set, execute.
 
bigjon61 said:
I haven't ran a haas in 10 years but I have ran a lot of FANUC controls in that time period. The time spent in the control is such a small piece of the puzzle, so I would trade a beefier machine for a "inferior control". I don't know what's so difficult about loading programs on a FANUC though as was giving as an example. Edit, program, change device, usb, arrow to program, f-set, execute.
Click to expand...

There's no way I would trade a Haas for a nominally more sturdy machine. Especially when it comes time to sell the machine.
 
g-coder05 said:
Both are good machines all around, It's just the small things that steer me more towards the Haas over the Doosan. I'm not sure where you got the $86K for the Haas but that's way off unless you took about every option they offer. The base price for the VF2-SS is $64K. Add probing, Programmable coolant nozzle, 4th interface, HSM, and Chip conveyor the list is $77K before the standard Haas 10% discount (Sometimes 15%) so basically $69K for a very capable machine.

As far as Philips goes? Never had one problem out of them in USA, China, Vietnam, and Mumbai. If I drop a spindle at 5PM Thursday there's a van with a new one at the shop the next morning. On occasion you will get a guy that's not happy with them but I'll take their service over any other distributor. Ellison is a great company and has great techs, the only problem I have noticed is if you need them it may take a few days. When Mori dropped them as a distributor they still had to honor their service commitments. That, plus now having to service and install Doosan put a burden on the techs workload.

It's the small overlooked things that need to kept in mind when comparing the two. Yes the Doosan is a heavier machine with LM style roller trucks while the Haas is HSR-35, A little bit different design but the LM is slightly more rigid. This can be well noticed on HSM finishes on the floor of a part big time as you can see in the part below. But,,, After a conversation with Ken Pots from Haas a few weeks ago next year will bring some serious changes for Haas structurally. With the introduction of the 400 foot pound torque 60HP spindle option they realized its time to ad some meat. Their changing to a heavier casting and going to HSR-45 trucks and rails plus a few more odds and ends. Not sure what your time frame to purchase is but the new stuff sounds like it will be nice.

The Doosan gives you the 15k standard spindle while Haas only has 12k standard. You say you are doing aluminum and brass so at first glance that 15k Doosan looks like the best choice until you look at the torque charts. Both machines peak at just above 86 FT pounds but the Doosan drops to 38.7 continuous while the Haas only drops to 64 FT pounds. It becomes a preferential trade of at that point. Do you use mostly small tools that don't need all the torque but yet need the extra 3k rpm's? Or, do you sometimes need to hog some material to the point you need that torque. One could argue if that's the case then upgrade to the Siemens High torque 43HP 150 FT pounds on the Doosan But then again I think that option is about $30K since you swap controls also (Granted I like the 840D better than the Fanuc). But then again the Haas now offers the 60HP 400 Ft pound 50 taper spindle for only $9k.

And taking a look at the controls. I just don't like fiddle farting around with Fanuc's extra key strokes to do simple task. Haas has simplified everything from loading a program to the VQC probing macros. everything is right there where you need it. Fanuc's strong point is in 20 years you will still be able to get parts to where Haas will surely have phased out the NGC control in favor of new technology.

Haas torque chart: 12,000-rpm Spindle

Doosan Torque Chart: http://www.misol.co.jp/doosan/MachiningCenter/DNM-ENG-series.pdf

Haas VF2 floor chatter:
View attachment 271272
Click to expand...

Thank you for your response. I'm looking to buy with in the next 2 weeks.

I think you may have looked at the Tq value wrong? Haas 12k spindle tq (at 12k) is around 18ft/lbs vs the Doosan is at 38ft/lbs. See graph below

My Haas quote included
HSM, TSC, wired for 4th, Probe, multi auger (I want belt vs auger), PCool, Auto air gun, Aux TSX Filter, Remote jog handle at the tune of $1,500!). I did send you a quote (can't remember which one) over Skype we when last talk about 2 weeks ago.

The Doosan S Models (4500s/5700s) come with all the above, other than the conveyor/wash down hose and air gun. Don't know why do not include air gun and wash down.

Doosan IMO and on paper have better specs, but that's all they are. Having talked to good number of people who have Doosan. Most say they won't go back to a Haas but they do mention their gripe with Fanuc. I'm not knocking Haas per say. Each machine has it's place and I want something that is easy to use, can for the most part fix my self, can cut the harder metals with ease/effectively, stay in service for a long time with min parts replacement. I do take extremely good care of my little Chinese machine. Hell I have keep a maintenance log of what services was done when for that thing.:D


Machine Data.jpg
 
FYI
The Doosan conveyor is "NOT" a micro fine system .. Meaning any chips that don`t dump off it go down and get washed off in the tank ... I had the micro fine conveyor added to the DNM5700 and it worked ok ( but cost about $5,500 extra ). The shop I went to and looked at the DNM5700 before buying mine warned me that they had to pull there tank out once a week and clean the chips out of the tank. after I ran one of the little Sharp mills years ago and had to clean its tank every three morning out I wanted nothing to do with that.

Haas has a black friday sale going on were you can get a VF2SS about fully loaded for 74K or a well loaded VF4SS with a 4th axis for 92K
 
This might be totally not an issue, but is anyone tracking Doosan the company being for sale? Doosan Machine Tools put up for sale after IPO cancellation - Pulse by Maeil Business News Korea. I'm no expert and hoping someone else can fill in detail, but my understanding is that back 20ish years ago when Doosan and Daewoo merged there were some orphan machines left without support.

I'm also in NC, but had very little contact with Phillips when we had a Haas, not enough to provide insight. And the Fanuc controlled mill we have hasn't needed outside service so no help there other.
 
D.D.Machine said:
FYI
The Doosan conveyor is "NOT" a micro fine system .. Meaning any chips that don`t dump off it go down and get washed off in the tank ... I had the micro fine conveyor added to the DNM5700 and it worked ok ( but cost about $5,500 extra ). The shop I went to and looked at the DNM5700 before buying mine warned me that they had to pull there tank out once a week and clean the chips out of the tank. after I ran one of the little Sharp mills years ago and had to clean its tank every three morning out I wanted nothing to do with that.

Haas has a black friday sale going on were you can get a VF2SS about fully loaded for 74K or a well loaded VF4SS with a 4th axis for 92K
Click to expand...

Could you shoot me a link to the fully loaded VF2SS? I only see the VF4SS w/ 4th axis, UMC 750 and lathe for black friday sales
 
Doosan seems like most company's that try and buy out a failing company like Daewoo and not only did they buy them out Doosan there self was failing and sold off the machine building side to the investors that have been trying to resale it ... and know that there largest dealer Ellison is not looking to good at least in my area I would really have to stop and think before I would get my business capital invested in a south Korea machine.
 
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