please give me a ballpark notion of cost to run 10,000 of this part.

bryan_machine · Jun 5, 2020

Some folks I've been helping are applying for a grant soon (they're part of a university lab.) Their device is a covid-19 test device, a quite inexpensive one. One component of it is an aluminum heat block - I've made about a dozen of these for them. These are to be machined from solid, 6061-T6.

The grant request for proposal is asking for 10,000 units of their machine, and thus 10,000 units of the component in the attached drawing. I'm a protoypes/experiments for self and friends guy, NOT a "make 10,000 of these" sort of operation. But a number of you lot ARE.

This is NOT an RFQ - that can't happen until they get the grant. What I am asking for is a ballpark number per unit, in quantity 10K (really), to be starting after the grant is issued (presumably soon), and ready for "the fall" which I gather means september.

Ballpark costs for that kind of volume? (The point being to ask for enough money in the grant to actually buy the parts.)

If you think you have some cost advantage in making such parts you don't want to reveal, feel free to PM me.

Here's a tiny thumbnail to get under the size limit (very hard to get it down to size for some reason):

And here's a link to a normal .pdf you can actually see:
http://bryanwi.com/WebPix/heatingblockdrawing.pdf

Milland · Jun 5, 2020

If some allowance can be made for surface finish in the 17.3 tapered bores and not requiring perfection in the deburring department (the small intersecting holes can be a pain) then I'd think around $2/ea @10K wouldn't be outrageous. If a smoother taper bore was needed to prevent risk of scraping the vials and better finishing, then closer to $3-4/ea.

I'm curious how others view it. I did a preliminary quote for a larger (but similar purpose) devise a month ago, so have some appreciation for what goes into these things.

Milland · Jun 5, 2020

There's something I don't understand about the print. The depth of the taper section is x.x, but the depth of the 3mm cbore below it is x.xx.

I'd think the taper would dominate insertion depth, so why bother controlling the cbore to a tighter degree? I must not grok how that's being used.

litlerob1 · Jun 5, 2020

Clear throat Milland you're calling that a 2-3 minute part. :eek:

not me.

R

bryan_machine · Jun 5, 2020

The nominal depth of the taper is indeed 13.5mm, and +-0.1mm is fine, but the dominating issue how the "gauge" fits. The clearence bore at the bottom is NOT so critical, I just missed that when I convereted the drawing.
(This is prelim.)

Litlerob1 - you end up touch 3 sides tool on (drilling, milling pockets, etc.) and milling (side milling at least) all 6 sides - but any 5-axis or even 5-axis horizontal can do it in 2 setups. But I've no clue how fast it can go in real production, which I started this thread.

gkoenig · Jun 5, 2020

litlerob1 said:
Clear throat Milland you're calling that a 2-3 minute part. not me.

R

That is a 1:30 part, on a 4th, in a Speedio, with some custom tooling.

Milland · Jun 5, 2020

litlerob1 said:
Clear throat Milland you're calling that a 2-3 minute part. not me.

R

Heh - I admit I'm not the best at quoting. But it's a simple part, with two custom cutters (well, more than two, but whatever) to rough and finish the taper bores. I'd probably not make my shop rate, but I tend to go low for university work. It's in my DNA, so to speak.

litlerob1 · Jun 5, 2020

Okay. Ass-you-me-ing we're talking about a Brother MX. And we're talking about doing 5 sides in One set up, and the 6th side on the Second set up....Between toolchanges, B-axis indexing and C-axis rotation, I don't see a 3 minute part. And that's assuming we're talking about the fastest 5 Axis Milling machine out there. But I'm wrong regularly. Nesting a bunch of parts on one pallet, maybe. Just saying, I don't see it.

R

DavidScott · Jun 5, 2020

I am with Milland on the low end, not so sure about going so high on the high end. I see this as a custom tool and the 4th axis job. I am also figuring in on easy payment, like not dicking around paying you, and not that I would be interested in the job. Certainly not a 2 min per part job, as in less, hopefully. 10,000 parts make it worth tooling up for.

gkoenig · Jun 5, 2020

litlerob1 said:
Okay. Ass-you-me-ing we're talking about a Brother MX. And we're talking about doing 5 sides in One set up, and the 6th side on the Second set up....Between toolchanges, B-axis indexing and C-axis rotation, I don't see a 3 minute part. And that's assuming we're talking about the fastest 5 Axis Milling machine out there. But I'm wrong regularly. Nesting a bunch of parts on one pallet, maybe. Just saying, I don't see it.

R

10k is enough quantity that you get an extrusion dimensioned to the Y direction, so you have 4 sides done to dimension.

Goes on the 4th clamped across Y and gets done in 1 op. 1/8" Nachi TSC drill hits the 4 through holes and takes the meat out of the cones. 3mm Nachi flat bottom TSC hits the bottom bores. Pair of custom tapered cutters rough and finish the taper bores. 1/4" EM finishes the top and bottom surfaces in a single pass. 3mm end mill does that little pocket.

I still have 45 seconds left to debur after all that.

Edited To Add:
Move it to 1.5 wide by 0.375 thick and you could ditch the need for a custom extrusion. Also, what is the finishing like? Anodize?

litlerob1 · Jun 5, 2020

gkoenig said:
10k is enough quantity that you get an extrusion dimensioned to the Y direction, so you have 4 sides done to dimension.

Goes on the 4th clamped across Y and gets done in 1 op. 1/8" Nachi TSC drill hits the 4 through holes and takes the meat out of the cones. 3mm Nachi flat bottom TSC hits the bottom bores. Pair of custom tapered cutters rough and finish the taper bores. 1/4" EM finishes the top and bottom surfaces in a single pass. 3mm end mill does that little pocket.

I still have 45 seconds left to debur after all that.

You also have another operation, plus original set-up, plus load and unload. Start to Start time isn't the same as the cycle time the software spits out. If that's how you quote work, you're on hind tit.

R

gkoenig · Jun 5, 2020

litlerob1 said:
You also have another operation, plus original set-up, plus load and unload. Start to Start time isn't the same as the cycle time the software spits out. If that's how you quote work, you're on hind tit.

R

What is this other operation you speak of?

D.D.Machine · Jun 6, 2020

looks like 2 opps ,,, 3/8" by 3/4" stock layed flat on a 4th … mitee bite clamps between two strips and do a row of tapers ,, turn 90* and do the side holes and cut down in thickness ,, turn 90 more and do second strip of taper holes ,, then flip back 90* and cut between them …

Second opp would just be clamp and mill off the extra width and do the bottom pocket in a vise ,,,

even on a small mill you could run 28.5" strips 2 on each side of a 4th axis ,,,

that would give you 128 parts per load on the 4th ,,,

litlerob1 · Jun 6, 2020

gkoenig said:
What is this other operation you speak of?

You have holes (tapered) 180° from a 5mm slot, than cross holes at 90° of B. If you mean 5 Axis I'll say okay, but I don't see how with 4.

R

Mike1974 · Jun 6, 2020

I have to admit, I haven't been a quoting/estimating guy in some years now, but I'm with Rob... 2minutes??? So 30 pcs/hr / 100 hr shop rate (average or so) = 3$ a part!?!? Factor in tooling, programming, setup and maybe average $4/part... Then it is medical so the dr/hospital is going to charge the end user $3-400 HUNDRED for each one... Sounds like a lose lose to me.

gkoenig · Jun 6, 2020

litlerob1 said:
You have holes (tapered) 180° from a 5mm slot, than cross holes at 90° of B. If you mean 5 Axis I'll say okay, but I don't see how with 4.

R

No, I would clamp the part across the narrow dimension (so clamping across the X axis). The tapered holes get addressed at A-90, the 3x5mm slot gets addressed at A90, while the through holes are at A0.

Delw · Jun 6, 2020

gkoenig said:
No, I would clamp the part across the narrow dimension (so clamping across the X axis). The tapered holes get addressed at A-90, the 3x5mm slot gets addressed at A90, while the through holes are at A0.

This^^^^
and to make it even faster buy preground stock (like TCI)in strips that way the only thing your doing is holes depths and cutting to length.
on a brother and 4th it would haul ass, you would have to debur inside the taper with the cross holes I'd use a nylon bottle brush of some sort in the 1/8 holes to knock the crossburr burrs off.

then parts come off machine finished.

I would change the 4th axis to 5 or 6 sided tombstone so to speak instead of a 4 side one. as you need to run as many parts as you can and keep your tool changes to a min. tool changes and part loading is what would take more time than runtime. so load it up to have your runtime more than tool change time.
Strips would be easy to load and fast. if you have a pallet machine it would be far faster, or make your tombstone so it accepts pallets loaidng and unloading while machine is running.
the finish is what the problem may or may not be. I am guessing 63 finish to 32 finish in the holes and angled holes thats not a problem. the Breaks where the cross holes meet the tapered Id is key.
tossing in a tumbler should be a problem.

gkoenig · Jun 6, 2020

Mike1974 said:
I have to admit, I haven't been a quoting/estimating guy in some years now, but I'm with Rob... 2minutes??? So 30 pcs/hr / 100 hr shop rate (average or so) = 3$ a part!?!? Factor in tooling, programming, setup and maybe average $4/part... Then it is medical so the dr/hospital is going to charge the end user $3-400 HUNDRED for each one... Sounds like a lose lose to me.

I think this is a highly machinery dependent quote. If you've got a gaggle of 40x20 CAT40 mills, this is a hard job to make money on. If you have a horizontal, it looks a bit better. If you have a Speedio with a pallet changer and dual trunnion? This is an obvious moneymaker.

What actually gets quoted is another matter entirely, and is based on factors that aren't in the print. Is this a rush-rush job? What is the finishing process (i.e. how much can we get away with and lean on post-processing for?). Is this 10k and done, or can we get a blanket arrangement in the future going? Is the client gonna pay?

Milland · Jun 6, 2020

gkoenig said:
What actually gets quoted is another matter entirely, and is based on factors that aren't in the print. Is this a rush-rush job? What is the finishing process (i.e. how much can we get away with and lean on post-processing for?). Is this 10k and done, or can we get a blanket arrangement in the future going? Is the client gonna pay?

Agreed - there's a lot of unknowns, so we're shooting in the dark. But we have gotten some useful discussion from the "RFQ", so the OP's ballpark request has been met (I'd hope).

Wait 'til we find out they get sourced from China for $0.50 each... :bawling:

as9100d · Jun 6, 2020

I think most of you are thinking about it the wrong way completely.

I originally figured running them in the hx250 pallet pool but hell... I think this is a job for the nlx and bar feed it. We did a fiber optic cleave tool component here recently that we moved from the mill to the lathe and cut our cycle time in half when you consider load and unload.

My software says $1.82 each with custom tooling, liners, collets, etc.

Who wants to unload 10,000 small parts by hand.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

please give me a ballpark notion of cost to run 10,000 of this part.

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