Poor man's z probe /touch off gage

leeko · Jul 17, 2021

Hi all

I'm planning to buy a 3d taster to speed up touching off on parts on my mill, but it will be a little while before the funds are available for that.

Touching off with an edge finder is pretty quick and reasonably accurate. But, touching off the z-axis takes a bit longer.

For tool setting, I'm using a dial indicator style tool setter from edge technologies, which works well enough. I was thinking an upside-down version that fits in the spindle would work equally well for setting g54 z0. I could probably adapt a dial indicator to the purpose, but I'm curious why I haven't seen a commercial version available? Is there a fundamental problem with that approach?

Thanks

Lee

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EnginCycles · Jul 17, 2021

Set Z0 at the bottom of all your work. Never need to deal with it once you set it. If you have step jaws use the bottom of the step. Your parts will thank you as well.

leeko · Jul 17, 2021

[emoji362]

That's a great suggestion thanks! Amazing how the simple stuff eludes us until it's pointed out....

But for the parts that sit deeper in the vise... A dial indicator with a known gage length at "0" seems like a more accurate way of doing it. Does no one else do that?

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EnginCycles · Jul 17, 2021

Work with the table or the vise ways as Z0 and have your known height changes. 1.3XX" to the vise ways and up depending on your vise jaws being used. If you use CAM model it with the table or the fixture. Once you start doing this it becomes much easier.

CarbideBob · Jul 17, 2021

Dial indicators in general do not like the shock of being loaded in a cnc.
The zero moves.
If you go to a reference and zero before touch off this works fine.
BTDT. It seems and looked to me like great idea.
Tasters or touch probes are built different.
Want to go low buck here.Center & Edge Finder Sets - -
One can modify the Z sensor to not just turn on a light but send a signal to the PLC/CNC to claim a zero just as a probe.
Note that these will not like Al2Ox coated tools.
Bob

706jim · Jul 17, 2021

EnginCycles said:
Set Z0 at the bottom of all your work. Never need to deal with it once you set it. If you have step jaws use the bottom of the step. Your parts will thank you as well.

I used to do this after my initial training from the Makino tech. Since then, I use the top of the part as the Z0 datum for planar parts. Reason? Clearance planes for drilling, intermediate moves etc. When the part zero is at the upper surface, it's easier to jump over clamps and so on with a simple G0 Z1.0 or Z2.0 move.

Garwood · Jul 17, 2021

A dowel pin with the end ground perfectly flat and a piece of white paper have done most of my touch off and edge finding for the past 15 years.

Might sound crude, but it sure is fast, trouble free and easy to get within a thou.

If I had to work in tenths all day I would not do it that way, but for quick and works well I don't think an average taster can beat it.

mhajicek · Jul 18, 2021

Used to use one of these before I had probing:

Precision Magnetic Z Axis Zero Setter 2" Height x 0.001"

LOTT · Jul 18, 2021

Are tasters necessary? No. Are they super handy and would I buy another in a heartbeat? Absolutely.

Reason #486 I love Brothers is that Z0 is the table. So if there's 1" parallels in the 3" tall Orange vise, the bottom of the part is at Z4, no indicating required. Or add in the stock thickness of you prefer using the top.

I also have a bunch of labels stuck above the control for known points, like Talon Jaws and Step Jaws, which speeds up setups.

mhajicek · Jul 18, 2021

LOTT said:
Reason #486 I love Brothers is that Z0 is the table.

Can't you do that on any machine?

Booze Daily · Jul 18, 2021

Years ago I worked at a shop running 5 axis mills. The zeros were top of the table and center of rotation. What a bitch when I had to make edits.

I prefer top of part and logical XY so I can read straight off the print.

LOTT · Jul 18, 2021

mhajicek said:
Can't you do that on any machine?

I don't know, it's probably possible but doesn't seem to be the trend. I'm talking about machine zero.

DouglasJRizzo · Jul 18, 2021

EnginCycles said:
Set Z0 at the bottom of all your work. Never need to deal with it once you set it. If you have step jaws use the bottom of the step. Your parts will thank you as well.

I always liked doing it this way.

mmurray70 · Jul 20, 2021

Z zero on the bottom of the part is a great idea... until you miss a retract or clearance plane.

Great if your running same few parts over and over. Easy way to crash if your doing jobshop work, different parts every day.

AARONT · Jul 20, 2021

mmurray70 said:
Z zero on the bottom of the part is a great idea... until you miss a retract or clearance plane.

Great if your running same few parts over and over. Easy way to crash if your doing jobshop work, different parts every day.

Sure, anything can happen. If you simulate the toolpath, you should be able to catch it though. We do jobshop work, and I program the vast majority off the bottom. It keeps setting offsets quick and easy.

Mike1974 · Jul 20, 2021

mmurray70 said:
Z zero on the bottom of the part is a great idea... until you miss a retract or clearance plane.

Great if your running same few parts over and over. Easy way to crash if your doing jobshop work, different parts every day.

Ya I never liked using the bottom for Z zero. Sounds great, bottom of vise always zero, no touching Z....

Do you always (or mostly) keep the same tools in machine? Don't you have to touch them off when you change them? Touch 1-2-5 tools and Z, can't see that Z touch taking alot of time.

Also, personal preference, like to see a Z initial move at 1-2" and then negative Z moves (personal preference?). Yes I use cam so I know I can make zero wherever I want and run verify to check for crashes....

Mtndew · Jul 20, 2021

mhajicek said:
Used to use one of these before I had probing:

Precision Magnetic Z Axis Zero Setter 2" Height x 0.001"

Yep, we have 3 of those for our guys. You roll the dice on whether or not you'll get a good one but they work. I bought mine over 15 years ago and it's still working perfectly.

PROBE · Jul 20, 2021

This discussion quite amazes me. Maybe I am not extremely objective (I am PROBE, ain't I), but there is no real alternative in CNC machine to tool setting device. For over one year I advertised on ebay the professional tool setting device, including shipment, macros for Macro B based controls and installation guidance for less the $500. Just 1 was recently sold. I do believe there are more such opportunities on the web, so why should one look for manual Bridgeport oriented device for $100 or more?
And if some puritan sceptics think that I am looking for profits, believe me, $500 will not significantly change my wellness status.

mhajicek · Jul 20, 2021

PROBE said:
This discussion quite amazes me. Maybe I am not extremely objective (I am PROBE, ain't I), but there is no real alternative in CNC machine to tool setting device. For over one year I advertised on ebay the professional tool setting device, including shipment, macros for Macro B based controls and installation guidance for less the $500. Just 1 was recently sold. I do believe there are more such opportunities on the web, so why should one look for manual Bridgeport oriented device for $100 or more?
And if some puritan sceptics think that I am looking for profits, believe me, $500 will not significantly change my wellness status.

Perhaps you need to establish a reputation? I don't think twice about the extra $6300 for the probing option on a new machine, but I know it's going to work reliably out of the box and I will always have support and spare parts decades into the future. I haven't seen your product, but just from your description and price point it seems to be in that grey area between hobbyist and professional. People might actually trust it more if you charged more.

Edit:

I just looked, and there's a wired tool setting probe from China for less than $60. Hobbyists will go for that one. Professionals will pay the thousands for something they know they can trust.

PROBE · Jul 21, 2021

mhajicek said:
Perhaps you need to establish a reputation? I don't think twice about the extra $6300 for the probing option on a new machine, but I know it's going to work reliably out of the box and I will always have support and spare parts decades into the future. I haven't seen your product, but just from your description and price point it seems to be in that grey area between hobbyist and professional. People might actually trust it more if you charged more.

Edit:

I just looked, and there's a wired tool setting probe from China for less than $60. Hobbyists will go for that one. Professionals will pay the thousands for something they know they can trust.

This is not my product. Professionally I choose to deal only with matters in which I feel I'm the best. Production of anything by far is not in my area of interest. And as to reputation and quality - hope that this Marposs TLS Tool Setter | eBay is good enough even for extreme "fine schmeckers".

By the way it was spread to forum members too https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/tool-setters-e-bay-373440/?highlight=ebay, unfortunately no one responded here.

Stefan

Poor man's z probe /touch off gage

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