Powering a Fadal 3016HT

I am about to power on a Fadal 3016HT, it is in my garage hence I am powering the machine off a RPC, the power coming into my home is a bit high at 244v, I did try to balance the RPC the best I been able to do is A=248v, B=248v and C=254v without any load to the RPC.
My question for the Fadal experts is, can I power the Fadal machine at this voltages or are they too high? I know I can tap the transformer depending on how much power I have coming in but it has been brought to my attention that the MOV's are rated at 250v and are placed before the transfomer. Thank you all for any help you can give me.

What the heck is a MOV????

Just tap the transformer higher.. I'd probably start at 260V..
You DO NOT want to send more than 240 to your spindle drive, unless
you like buying new spindle drives.

MOV Definition and General Electrical Circuit Protection. MOV Definition. – A Metal Oxide Varistor (MOV) is a voltage suppression device that filters and clamps the transient in an electrical circuit. A Varistor is a Variable Resistor, sometimes referred to as Voltage Dependant Resistors (VDRs) by some manufacturers.

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Are you talking about the 1170 board.. "Surge Suppressor"... There are two versions, High voltage and Low
voltage.... That's the only thing before the transformer.. I'm not even sure what it does, but you should have the
250V version... If you don't they are cheap. $80 or so, probably cheaper on E-bay. Its not something I would
be overly concerned with..

You could just get a single phase transformer and do it the right way and not the the way that the manual specifically says they do not recommend.

But at least in my case the spindle drive doesn’t go through the transformer so you may need to tone those voltages down.

Yes you guys are correct the 1170-2 board it is marked 250v, since it is a surge protector board I am afraid is going to pop with this voltages A=248v, B=248v and C=254v, what do you guys think?
Yes I was thinking on tapping the transformer to 250v, 250v and 260v for the generated leg that is at 254v, measure the voltage at the output of the transformer and perhaps tap it higher to get around 230v out. It sounded it like a good idea until someone pointed out the surge board to me.
What do you guys think?
Fist I wanted to use a Phase Perfect but at $5000+ is out of my reach. My second choice was the single phase transformer but it is $1000+ and I already have a a RPC and have read that other people use them successfully hence I wanted to try that.

I think you can wire your current transformer for single phase if you know what you are doing. L2-3 on the drive are jumpered. Look at the manuals on how to do it.

As for the surge protector.. I do not know the answer.. That might be worth a call to ITS
on Monday morning... At least its a CHEAP board... Actually I have one here I'll sell you
for shipping and a six pack. I even know where it is(<----- thats a miracle in and of itself),
and I'll never need it.

As for trying to run single phase into the transformer.. There was a thread here not too long ago,
and the guy ended up buying the single phase transformer after messing around with it and getting nowhere.

As for rotary's.. I did for a while without a problem, and people are doing it everyday without a problem...
They probably just charged extra for the single phase transformer, and its not like you are going to void
the warranty that expired 20 years ago.

Bobw you are the best my man, I think I'll give it a go and keep my finger crossed that the board is not going to go up in smoke.
Thank you for the offer on the board I might take it if I fry mine you are giving me the courage to try it.
I will be finishing wiring up the RPC later on today hopefully at latest tomorrow, I'll report how it goes. Thank you again!

Neo6 said:

I am about to power on a Fadal 3016HT, it is in my garage hence I am powering the machine off a RPC, the power coming into my home is a bit high at 244v, I did try to balance the RPC the best I been able to do is A=248v, B=248v and C=254v without any load to the RPC.
My question for the Fadal experts is, can I power the Fadal machine at this voltages or are they too high? I know I can tap the transformer depending on how much power I have coming in but it has been brought to my attention that the MOV's are rated at 250v and are placed before the transfomer. Thank you all for any help you can give me.

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Neo6

I am not a subject matter expert but I ran, fixed and wired a bunch in the 7 years I managed a shop. First of, the RPC your using for the Fadal needs to be 1.75x larger than the spindle motor at a min and feeder wires to it need to be wired so that the massive current draw from the startup doesn't cause a voltage drop. I would wire the tap at 250v. Keep the incoming voltage within 5% of what is on the transformer tap that you wire. Fadal's are power picky.

Once wired, power the machine on and check voltages. Do not move anything or try to turn the spindle on until you check your voltages again. Make changes as necessary. If no changes need to be made, home the machine. I would have someone handy to check your amp draws while you home the machine. Pay special attention to the generated leg. That would be L3. If that works without issue, move the table in one direction at rapid checking amp draw. That will give you an indication as to how much each axis will draw.

Save the spindle startup for last. Make sure your machine is homed out before you do anything with the spindle. If I remember correctly, the 3016 I ran had a 15hp motor on it. Make sure what you have can supply that kind of juice.

Chips

Sent from my SM-T900 using Tapatalk

the RPC your using for the Fadal needs to be 1.75x larger than the spindle motor at a min

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From experience, I'm going to call BS on that one...

Its actually 22.5hp peak, so you are saying you need a 40hp RPC..

I've ran 'em on a 10hp..

The only thing that CAN pull a lot of juice in a Fadal is the spindle.. And its not like a
lathe, where you are trying to spin up a big giant heavy chuck and spindle assembly. That
takes a huge amount of power just to get going..

Its takes almost nothing to spin up the spindle in a mill.. Compared to say a 10" chuck that
weighs 80 pounds.. On a mill you may have a 4" facemill at most, and it weights 2 pounds.

I've also run them on a 20hp (the 10hp was while the 20hp was out getting fixed, start caps) and you can
pull a 10 or even a 15hp cut without a problem.. And how often do most people even do that??

The only time I had anything happen, and it was just the spindle bogging was when
I was just playing around and hit 23 cubic inches a minute in 1018.. And I don't
know if that was the RPC getting pissy, or I maxed out the spindle.

Bobw said:

From experience, I'm going to call BS on that one...

Its actually 22.5hp peak, so you are saying you need a 40hp RPC..

I've ran 'em on a 10hp..

The only thing that CAN pull a lot of juice in a Fadal is the spindle.. And its not like a
lathe, where you are trying to spin up a big giant heavy chuck and spindle assembly. That
takes a huge amount of power just to get going..

Its takes almost nothing to spin up the spindle in a mill.. Compared to say a 10" chuck that
weighs 80 pounds.. On a mill you may have a 4" facemill at most, and it weights 2 pounds.

I've also run them on a 20hp (the 10hp was while the 20hp was out getting fixed, start caps) and you can
pull a 10 or even a 15hp cut without a problem.. And how often do most people even do that??

The only time I had anything happen, and it was just the spindle bogging was when
I was just playing around and hit 23 cubic inches a minute in 1018.. And I don't
know if that was the RPC getting pissy, or I maxed out the spindle.

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Bobw

Noted. That may work for you but not everyone.

I currently have a 15hp RPC that has issues running my big mill. The 5 hp spindle draw is pretty intense. Let's just say it kicks out all 3 of my servo drives when it powers up and it's only a cat 40. It all depends on the spindle size, motor and how it's all wired. At idol my machine draws 2.95 amps on the generated leg with nothing moving.

I'm by no means a subject matter expert but based on what the RPC manufacturers reccomend, it's better to error on the safe side. They reccomend 2x the size. On a digital, not so much. I also am a tad more agresive when it comes to machining because I don't have the software to do adaptive or chip thinning types of machining. It's not uncommon for me to have my spindle loads at 120%. One of my machines running like that pulls 16 amps. Now have 2 running at the same time... As a business owner I look to the future. What am I going to add to the mix next and can I power it? Things to think about.

Just my $.02

Chips

Sent from my SM-T900 using Tapatalk

I would use an autotransformer before the RPC. If you just need the voltage down something like 12V, wire in a regular 12V transformer with the primary parallel with line and the secondary in series, out of phase with line voltage. That will subtract 12V from your supple very cheaply. Find a transformer with an output amperage equal to or greater than the machine draws.

I wouldn't try to use a single phase transformer to get the generated leg down because that leg will drop below supply voltage under load.

Thank you gentleman for all your comments, I did power the machine today! nothing exploded so I am happy (thank you for the infusion of courage Bobw) however I have a rolling error on screen "AXIS CONTROLLER DOES NOT RESPOND TO NC, CLEAR AN EMERGENCY STOP CONDITION. PRESS THE JOG KEY TO RESET THE EMERGENCY STOP." I did engage and disengage the estop also press the jog key but nothing changed still the error remains.
This Fadal I got at auction and the riggers did say that there was an error when they tried to block the machine so most likely this is an existing problem, any ideas of what could it be?
I did a search here in the forum and I saw an older post were it turn out to be the battery on the board that was dead and corrupted the memory, does that sounds right?
Anyhow after putting the machine under load the voltage changed to L1=246v, L2=227v and L3=238. The transformer is tapped for 250v across all legs and I see the voltage on the other side at L1=233v, L2=215v and L3=225v so I am planning on re-tapping the transformer to L1=250v, L2=230 and L3=240v, does that sound right?

IF its a battery problem (though my gut says its not) you'll probably have to reset the parameters..
Thankfully this is a Fadal and not any other machine on the planet.. They are written down inside
the pendant, it'll take you 5 minutes...

The ONE parameter that I think COULD cause your error.. Too many, or not Enough axis in the parameters.
Set for X,Y,Z,A, and you don't have a 4th hooked up... I'm assuming you are new to Fadals, so
SETP from the <Enter Next Command> line.

Also, have you tried the trouble shooting chart in the manual.. Maintenance Manual, Section 16.
Technical Docs | Manuals & Diagrams | FadalCNC.com

Start at the top.. And notice the first thing the chart tells you to check, before it even asks
what your problem is.. VOLTAGES!!!!!!! 95% of all Fadal problems come down to voltages.... And it
doesn't have to be off by much..

The troubleshooting chart doesn't always point you to the exact problem.. What it does is help you eliminate
stuff thats not a problem.. And it can help point you in the right direction.. Also, since I'm assuming
you are new to Fadals, it'll help you get familiar with the machine, and that's never a bad thing.

You could also try pulling and reseating all the boards. Axis controller cards are the 1010's.. Should be
3 of 'em in a row in the middle of the card cage, and then there will be another 1010 over a few slots, that
one is for the spindle.

Another thing.. Go through and hit every circuit breaker button you can find.. The ones on the cards also,
occasionally it really is that easy.. Also wouldn't hurt to check all the fuses.

If it was me I'd get the single phase transformer and be done with it. It's going to be more reliable than an RPC, and their not that expensive.

If you bought the machine to make money with, the time wasted getting an RPC to work reliably is taking away from time you could be making money on the machine. Of course if you don't have work for the machine, not much money, and plenty of time it's a different story.

I'm not anti RPC, I have one that's being going for 30+ years, it's been passed around friends so they can power BP's Lathes etc in their garages, I just wouldn't use one on a CNC unless I really had to.

T-813, $895 from ITS.

ITS: Transformer, T812, ELE-0201

Thank you Bobw and triumph406,
Bob: I am new to Fadals you are correct, I did saw the settings inside the pendant cabinet but I was not sure if those still apply and if they are all the settings I need. I will check voltages and try re-seating/re-setting the cards along with checking fuses.
Triumph: I am not making money with the machine it lives in my garage perhaps when I master the machine I'll try making money with it. You are correct money is a factor and I do have time to put into getting it working the money of a transformer could be better spend in tooling. Thank you once more guys.

I got the battery yesterday install it today and the machine is up could not be happier
Now I am at setup I want to work on this over the weekend, the pictures are of the settings that are posted in the machine is that all I need? Is there anything else that I should have in mind? I see that there is a section that says "scales offsets" does this mean that the machine has scales? Is this something that I should make note of?
Anyhow thank you all for your help I am one happy guy.

Bobw said:

From experience, I'm going to call BS on that one...

Its actually 22.5hp peak, so you are saying you need a 40hp RPC..

I've ran 'em on a 10hp..

The only thing that CAN pull a lot of juice in a Fadal is the spindle.. And its not like a
lathe, where you are trying to spin up a big giant heavy chuck and spindle assembly. That
takes a huge amount of power just to get going..

Its takes almost nothing to spin up the spindle in a mill.. Compared to say a 10" chuck that
weighs 80 pounds.. On a mill you may have a 4" facemill at most, and it weights 2 pounds.

I've also run them on a 20hp (the 10hp was while the 20hp was out getting fixed, start caps) and you can
pull a 10 or even a 15hp cut without a problem.. And how often do most people even do that??

The only time I had anything happen, and it was just the spindle bogging was when
I was just playing around and hit 23 cubic inches a minute in 1018.. And I don't
know if that was the RPC getting pissy, or I maxed out the spindle.

Click to expand...

Bob, is your machine the normal spindle, HT or VHT? For what its worth, I have a 4020 with the standard spindle running off a 35hp phase converter. I got a VFD low voltage alarm at 18 cubic inches a minute in mild steel with a sandvik R390 which is probably much less efficent then an endmill.

mmurray70 said:

Bob, is your machine the normal spindle, HT or VHT? For what its worth, I have a 4020 with the standard spindle running off a 35hp phase converter. I got a VFD low voltage alarm at 18 cubic inches a minute in mild steel with a sandvik R390 which is probably much less efficent then an endmill.

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HT I believe. I'm not sure what a VHT is.. That bog happened on a 25hp rotary. I think there was a 10hp a 20hp
and a 25hp.. I try to repress the days before real 3 phase..

The R390 is an awesome indexable.. Depending on the edge prep, it can be a HUGE power hog... Most indexables
can be. I could see 18 cubic inches maxing you out.... I guess it also depends on the torque curve and where
you were rpm wise (I'm not an expert, I know just enough to be dangerous)..