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  1. #1
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    Default Problem with 5 axis matsuura

    Hello all, ill try to keep this as simple as possible. Im using a matsuura mam 72-35v. Awesome, beautiful, expensive machine. But on certain parts it wont chamfer the tops right. Initially i thaught it was a cutter comp issue but the same tool chamfers holes in the part (with cutter comp) for npt threads. The issue is that when i try to cut the chamfer around the top of the part with the table at B0. C0. The machine acts like the part is moved over 20 thou or so, cuts a oversized chamfer on one side and nothing on the other side. The real confusing part is 2 seperate tools do this. Im using a .75 carbide emill too do the same chamfer lower on the part and it moves over by the same amount as the first tool that chamfers the top. Right now your probably thinking-this morons part is touched off .02 in the wrong direction HOWEVER the whole part is done in 1 op on a 5 axis.. so if the touch offs were wrong then every tool would be doing the same. But its not, the part measures perfectly, every hole is in the correct location, the chamfers for npt holes are all perfect, but the outside chamfer moves. It also moves randomly, one part its fine, the next its messed. Ive gone over my code 100 times and all the numbers are correct, it just randomly offsets over for the chamfer-sometimes... its driving me absolutley insane. Before the shop im in now i had zero experience with a 5 axis. If anyone has any idea what could cause this, your input would be much appreciated!

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    Post this on Emastercam.com and hope that FoghornLeghorn replies. He is a Matsuura AE and would have the best insight into what might cause this.

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    Do your program from center of rotation, Or using tilted workplane? What software are you using.? New install? Are your kinematics parameters good? I use COR and I Have had this happen with errant plane origin.

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    +1 on BALNH’s comment, reminded me that I have had that happen on 4axis parts.

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    Please post your NC Code file for review

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    Are you using CAMplete?

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    Center of rotation, each part is probed in the machine. Everything on this machine usually works fine, sorry for late response.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dstryr View Post
    Please post your NC Code file for review
    this is where it messes up, and its not consistent either, some parts are fine

    N12(MILLDRILL)
    G40G80G90
    G10G90L12P3R.125
    T3M6
    T76
    G28G91Z0
    G90
    G131
    G69
    M203S10000
    (TOP)
    M132
    G00G90G54.1P[#150]X-2.625Y2.415B0C90.
    M131
    G43H[#517]D[#518]Z1.
    M3S10000
    M8
    Z-.112
    G41G00X-2.75Y2.415
    G03X-2.45Y2.115R.3F60.
    G01X2.45
    Y-2.115
    X-2.45
    Y2.115
    G03X-2.75Y2.415R.3
    G40G00X-2.625Y2.415
    G90G00Z1.
    X-1.35Y-0.835
    G81Z-0.181R0.05F40.
    X1.35
    G80
    (FIRST SIDE)
    G28G91Z0
    M132
    G0G90
    G68.2X0Y0Z0I0.J90.K90.
    G53.1
    M131
    G0G90X-0.85Y.635
    Z3.45
    Z2.338
    G41G00X-.7Y.635
    G03X-1.139Y.635R.2195
    G03X-.561Y.635R.289
    G03X-1.139Y.635R.289
    G03X-.7Y.635R.2195
    G40G00X-0.85Y.635
    G90G00Z3.45
    G00X-0.85Y-1.46
    G81Z2.27R2.5
    G80
    G0Y1.698
    G81Z2.33R2.5
    Y-0.428
    G80
    (SECOND SIDE)
    G69
    G28G91Z0
    M132
    G0G90
    G68.2X0Y0Z0I90.J90.K90.
    G53.1
    M131
    G0X-0.85Y0.
    Z3.115
    Z1.9395
    G41G00X-.7Y0.
    G03X-1.2015Y0.R.2507
    G03X-.4985Y0.R.3515
    G03X-1.2015Y0.R.3515
    G03X-.7Y0.R.2507
    G40G00X-.85Y0.
    G90G00Z3.115
    X-1.444Y1.75
    G83Z1.995Q0.384R2.165
    X-0.256Y-1.75
    G80
    (THIRD SIDE)
    G69
    G28G91Z0
    M132
    G0G90
    G68.2X0Y0Z0I180.J90.K90.
    G53.1
    M131
    G0G90X-0.85Y-.635
    Z3.45
    Z2.3045
    G41G00X-.7Y-.635
    G03X-1.139Y-.635R.2195
    G03X-.561Y-.635R.289
    G03X-1.139Y-.635R.289
    G03X-.7Y-.635R.2195
    G40G00X-0.85Y-.635
    G90G00Z3.45
    G0X-0.85Y-1.698
    G81Z2.33R2.5
    Y0.428
    G80
    (FOURTH SIDE)
    G69
    G28G91Z0
    M132
    G0G90
    G68.2X0Y0Z0I270.J90.K90.
    G53.1
    M131
    G0G90X-0.6Y1.75
    Z3.115
    G83Z2.04Q0.384R2.165
    X-1.1Y-1.75
    G80
    G0X-1.388Y1.5
    G83Z1.995Q0.384R2.165
    X-0.312Y0
    X-1.388Y-1.5
    G80G90G00Z3.115
    M5
    M9
    G69
    G130
    G28G91Z0
    M25
    M4S2500
    M27
    M5
    G30G91X0Y0
    G90
    M1

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    When you say you are probing the stock; what are you doing with that data?

    I don't speak Fanuc that well, but it looks like your issue may be related to the fact that there isn't a tilted work plane active for the chamfer on top. Could be related to how it shifts the part with WSEC or something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    When you say you are probing the stock; what are you doing with that data?

    I don't speak Fanuc that well, but it looks like your issue may be related to the fact that there isn't a tilted work plane active for the chamfer on top. Could be related to how it shifts the part with WSEC or something.

    sorry, g54.1p[#150] is the work plane, top of the entire program has a p=(pallet number) this machine has 32 pallets and a seperate program for each one, so its just an easy way to copy paste it 32 times in a new setup and change the p value for each pallet running
    edit: sorry, do you mean like a g17? im running 2 machines while i do this lol my bad and this is the probe program:

    N1(PROBE)
    T211M6
    T240
    M132
    G0G90G54.1P[#150]X0Y0B0C0.
    M131
    G0G90G54.1P[#150]G43H[#517]
    G65P9832(PROBE ON)
    G65P9810Z.25F100.(PROTECTED MOVE)
    G65P9023A4.X4.36Z-.75S[#150+100.]
    G65P9023A4.Y5.025Z-.75S[#150+100.]
    G65P9833(PROBE OFF)
    G28G91Z0
    G30G91X0Y0
    G90
    M01

    edit2: there is a g17 at the very begining of the program, usually thats all this machine ever needs as long as it read the beggining of the program?
    #150=25.(PALLET NUMBER)
    G17G20G40G69G80G90
    G28G91Z0
    G30G91X0Y0
    M132
    G28G91B0C0
    M131
    G90

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    Those sub program calls don't mean anything to me, so it is still hard to speculate what you are actually doing with the data after probing.

    G68.2 is a user definable tilted workplane. I believe there are multiple parameters that enable or disable various additional position modifiers while a tilted workplane is active.

    I have a pretty strong hunch at this point that (at least for the chamfer) the part is shifted into the correct position only during tilted work. That may explain why sometimes the issue is worse than others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    Those sub program calls don't mean anything to me, so it is still hard to speculate what you are actually doing with the data after probing.

    G68.2 is a user definable tilted workplane. I believe there are multiple parameters that enable or disable various additional position modifiers while a tilted workplane is active.

    I have a pretty strong hunch at this point that (at least for the chamfer) the part is shifted into the correct position only during tilted work. That may explain why sometimes the issue is worse than others.
    All the subs do is update the pallets work offset so x0. y0. is the center of part on pallet. So, if the workplane was wrong, wouldnt there be issues with other features on the top? the hole locations are correct and everything else measures good? or would it only affect using cutter comp on the top of the part? Also, why would it change from part to part? And how would you suggest fixing it? honestly before this shop i had no experience with a 5 axis so some of this code is still a bit of a mystery to me. its mostly been trial and error looking at the older programs here but as far as i can tell im not missing anything thats made any of our older programs run just fine? this actually was one of our older programs i just changed the chamfer tool so i could do all the spot drilling and smaller hole chamfers with the same tool. But like i mentioned previously, both tools that chamfer the outside edges are doing the same thing, so what you say about the workplane sounds plausible. how would i fix that tho? and why would this only now be a problem when this jobs been done before? sorry for so many questions at once, just trying to get this figured and absorb as much info on the subject as i can. thanks in advance!

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    Quote Originally Posted by IconoclastAl View Post
    Hello all, ill try to keep this as simple as possible. Im using a matsuura mam 72-35v. Awesome, beautiful, expensive machine.
    I just looked that puppy up, and you can get it with a 520 tool magazine.

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    Yea it has alot of options for sure. Ours has 240 tool mag, and 32 pallets.

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    It looks like your part isn't in the exact center of rotation. You need either a G54.2 call (for dynamic work offset) or a G68.2 (tilted work plane) call for every tool if you are probing a part location.

    Post the code out with a swarf cut using an end mill and I bet it cuts just fine (since it would force a full 5-axis move and the associated dynamic work offset).

    Find out if you've still got the CAMplete license for this machine (Matsuura has packaged it with these machines for some time now). It will help your learning curve immensely and avoid issues like this.

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    Rick, does tilted planes automatically compensate for positional inaccuracies on a Matsuura?

    My guess was that those probing cycles are feeding the position back to G54.4 (WSEC), which is being automatically activated with G68.2. That was just a guess though, as I have never noticed that behavior in the wild. Normally G68.2 should just be a blind shift that doesn't care how far you are off of COR. Again, thinking Matsuura may have some unusual parameters turned on in standard configuration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    Rick, does tilted planes automatically compensate for positional inaccuracies on a Matsuura?

    My guess was that those probing cycles are feeding the position back to G54.4 (WSEC), which is being automatically activated with G68.2. That was just a guess though, as I have never noticed that behavior in the wild. Normally G68.2 should just be a blind shift that doesn't care how far you are off of COR. Again, thinking Matsuura may have some unusual parameters turned on in standard configuration.
    Those look like the PQI macros we had on our MX-520 PC4 at the old day job but may be modified (we only had 4 pallets and didn't write to macro variables for offsets since we were only using a handful at a time). If you look at his code it never calls a G68.2; it cancels with a G69 and then just uses the flat plane G54.1 P# call (the plane in which the probing occurred, which was likely flat and at C0.0). The thing is if you're not at center of rotation even with those measured offsets you need to have a G68.2 or G54.2 call to accommodate. G68.2 will be for positional work and G54.2 will be needed for full 5-axis motion.

    We had to learn our way around some of this when we needed to probe in a plane other than A0.0 C0.0. I'm a bit of a n00b at all this, but I can't stress enough how easy this was to do in CAMplete. Matsuura calls it "Intelligent Protection System" or IPS but AFAIK it comes with every machine they sell. I can't imagine fighting with post processors for this stuff on a 5-axis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IconoclastAl View Post
    Center of rotation, each part is probed in the machine. Everything on this machine usually works fine, sorry for late response.
    either you or i are confused on this. you EITHER program for center of rotation and locate the stock in the same spot as it is in the program OR you probe the stock wherever it is on the table and use 'dynamic work offset/tilted work plane'
    if you're probing the stock, you're using tilted workplane/DWO. please confirm which.

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    after reading the whole thread, i'm about 90% sure the issue is in your programming. you need to be absolutely certain about how your program is set up as far as work coordinate system. if its set up from COR then you dont need to probe it, if you're probing it while running off COR it will throw shit off, and the other way around.
    pick one method and roll with it, let us know if problem still exists.

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    Hopefully somebody with more Matsuura specific expertise can chime in. I do know a few things for certain though.

    - They can definitely program from COR and probe to compensate for error. That is what WSEC is for. The probed values would go into the "shift" instead of the standard work offset page.

    - G68.2, tilted workplanes is totally separate from dynamic work offsets. They can be combined or used separately. Dare I say most (at least most IME) 5 axis fanucs are being programmed using COR and tilted planes.

    - Dynamic Work Offsets are the shit, and it is shocking that so few people are utilizing them.

    - WSEC or DWO are dependent on your COR being calibrated correctly (and recorded in parameters) to function correctly. This is probably not your issue here though.

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