Problems with DMG Uk #dontbuyDMG

#dontbuyDMG
WARNING TO ALL MACHINE SHOP OWNERS

If DMG MORI UK Ltd charging over £100/hour for a service engineer wasn’t bad enough,
Having issues with work carried out.
Overpriced DMG only parts
Refusal to send out service engineers because an invoice is under query

If you query the invoice you get nowhere,

Instead they instruct their solicitors and you get a County Court Claim issued against you !

Well this will be a great opportunity to share with the world what a terrible company @dmgmori is and how they have treated a #SME like mine.
I have a catalogue of evidence dating back over 14 years I will be sharing with you all.

#dontbuyDMG #ripoff #CNC #5axis #DMG

My companies bad experience with them started over 14 years ago when they knownly agreed to a delivery date that they knew couldn't be met.
Our machine arrived over a month late.

I recently called Mori about getting a build sheet for a Hitachi Seiki. They told me I needed to set up an account in order to find out what options the machine had. Ok no problem.......wait you need a picture of a business card and a credit check? So I inquire as what the charge will be and I am told there is no charge......

Yes I would easily pass their bogus credit check but WTF. And a picture of a business card??? The 12 year old down the street with a push mower has business cards. I'm not jumping through hoops for no reason. They likely would have been useless with a Hitachi anyway.....Fuck em

I'm a cash guy. I don't extend terms and also don't use terms.

They love stuff like that so they can suck up contact details for your local sales rep #dontbuyDMG

one of my friends also tell me about this but unfortunately, I don't believe them but now I see your post. so thank you for the update.

Its the easy way to have an excuse to call in, if they have provided details for an older machine. #dontbuyDMG

You sound like a Tricky customer.

Tricky said:

#dontbuyDMG
WARNING TO ALL MACHINE SHOP OWNERS

If DMG MORI UK Ltd charging over £100/hour for a service engineer wasn’t bad enough,
Having issues with work carried out.
Overpriced DMG only parts
Refusal to send out service engineers because an invoice is under query

If you query the invoice you get nowhere,

Instead they instruct their solicitors and you get a County Court Claim issued against you !

Well this will be a great opportunity to share with the world what a terrible company @dmgmori is and how they have treated a #SME like mine.
I have a catalogue of evidence dating back over 14 years I will be sharing with you all.

#dontbuyDMG #ripoff #CNC #5axis #DMG

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Tricky said:

charging over £100/hour for a service engineer wasn’t bad enough

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^^^ That doesn't sound "out of normal" for industry ~ £100/hr ≈ $120 - $160 / hr

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Tricky said:

Refusal to send out service engineers because an invoice is under query

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^^^So unpaid invoices, they don't send their techs and they basically ding your credit record and send a collections agency against you (Just translating English things into 'mercanese (as best I can )).

Tricky said:

Overpriced DMG only parts

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^^^ well Duh... 'cuz DMG Mori - - :-)

Tricky said:

I have a catalogue of evidence dating back over 14 years I will be sharing with you all.

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^^^^ Well that sounds more like it ! :-), (assuming it's not a long list of very trivial things that happen to just about every machine over a fifteen year period ?)

Isn't the DMG Mori the small-company destroying "mega-corp" - procurers of the finest ship sinking
boat anchors known to man... Wait a minute... , you have remained in business for 14 years in spite of DMG Mori ?

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@Tricky this sounds like something the manager of DMG Mori UK might have written post #1 triangulating the "Peanut gallery" here to say " Dude that's perfectly normal etc. etc. What are you complaining about man - that's "How" the industry is unfortunately, welcome to the real world blah blah blah "

The head sales / managers DMG Mori U.K. come across as being real "Pr*cks"/ "D*cks" if they have to be / required to be ?

I know there are a few shops in the U.K. that had a super bad time with DMG Mori , but seemingly not everyone does ????

TeachMePlease said:

You sound like a Tricky customer.

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In the U.K. we used to say "Awkward customer" ... That's the polite euphemism. But that's his handle ? (cough cough).

Alex99 said:

one of my friends also tell me about this but unfortunately, I don't believe them but now I see your post. so thank you for the update.

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^^^ This sounds a little "Fake" but might not be ?

Tricky said:

<snip>

Instead they instruct their solicitors and you get a County Court Claim issued against you !

<snip>

I have a catalogue of evidence dating back over 14 years I will be sharing with you all.

#dontbuyDMG #ripoff #CNC #5axis #DMG

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Legally you need to show that their actions caused substantial damage to your livelihood. [ I.e. a numeric value for money lost as a result ] - AND were in breach of contract ?

IS financing also involved in this case i.e. you are paying a ton of cash for machines that don't run and the clock keeps on ticking ? (That's a powerful / somewhat exploitative "lever" at DMG's disposal. ).

If you have a case then you may have to put together a law suit or counter law suit. It's possible that something like a small U.K. equivalent of a civil suit could be brought against DMG Mori U.K. (with other companies that have been screwed in exactly the same / systematic way... i.e. Bad faith - predatory and exploitative tactics applied in a systematic way. ) The big problem is DMG Mori have you by the short an' curlies I.e. they have the "Power " to be super obstructive and essentially let your machines "Die" the machines you depend upon for your livelihood. ~ I'm sure some "Peeps" here have some good advice for you when things get really bad and you have to go to "War".

Fine print ~ what you may have signed for may have numerous arse covering clauses (that strongly favor DMG MORI / DMG Mori UK and other subsidiaries .).

There's one bloke in the UK that bought many tons of DMG Mori equipment and was super dissatisfied and then switched to LEADWELL and was then super happy. He / his firm didn't like the older DMU universals 2nd gen then switched to a trunnion based machines from Leadwell*. (That type of original mistake can come from the sales side of things.).

Sometimes buying the wrong machine for the wrong application and being a BAD fit in general - can cause a lot of what you describe above and beyond the normal problems + (DMG Mori problems).

@Tricky sounds like you have some 5 axis machines and other besides ? Which models / years (if you don't mind me asking ?).

Did DMG Mori try to get you to sign a NDA ?

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* No affiliation.

No NDA was ever signed.
My Evo70 was bought second hand (bought direct from a company clousure), that is the cause of the invoice disputes, over it eating table encoders and sealing of covers to prevent coolant getting into the gear oil sump.

I had a Gildemeister that i bought new from them that turned out to be a bit of a lemon.
They agreed to a delivery date of the new machine knowing full well they couldn't deliver it until a month later.
Meanwhile, our old machine was gone and we were left with no turn-mill capacity at the time.
It turned up and didn't work when the engineer was trying to commision it.
Basically it was jinxed from the start.

This is not even scratching the surface of it.

We have a couple of Matsuura 5 axis machines, one MAM72-35V and one MX330 PC10 both bought new in the UK, Matsuura have a good repuation of looking after their customers and working to a resolution if things don't go right, its why i bought a 2nd one.

DMG attitude is we are DMG we must be right therefore everyone else is automatically wrong.
#dontbuyDMG

Tricky,

Sounds like you've had a rather tough time and some bad experiences. However, your manner of communicating here does not seem genuine -- it instead seems like a rather poor attempt to start a grassroots marketing/canceling campaign against DMG. The use of hashtags after every post does not lend your claims any credence... actually the opposite. It sounds to me like you're a difficult person/customer to deal with so the local DMG reps that have to deal with you on a regular basis aren't doing you any favors. So instead of changing your tune, you're trying to "pressure them" by creating a post on this forum that you can show them later on to prove how unreasonable they're being.

I don't think that's a sound tactic and I don't think it's going to turn out the way you expect. In all likelihood, you're going to continue to work yourself up more, become even less pleasant to deal with, and never get your actual issues resolved.

Tricky said:

No NDA was ever signed.
My Evo70 was bought second hand (bought direct from a company clousure), that is the cause of the invoice disputes, over it eating table encoders and sealing of covers to prevent coolant getting into the gear oil sump.

I had a Gildemeister that i bought new from them that turned out to be a bit of a lemon.
They agreed to a delivery date of the new machine knowing full well they couldn't deliver it until a month later.
Meanwhile, our old machine was gone and we were left with no turn-mill capacity at the time.
It turned up and didn't work when the engineer was trying to commision it.
Basically it was jinxed from the start.

This is not even scratching the surface of it.

We have a couple of Matsuura 5 axis machines, one MAM72-35V and one MX330 PC10 both bought new in the UK, Matsuura have a good repuation of looking after their customers and working to a resolution if things don't go right, its why i bought a 2nd one.

DMG attitude is we are DMG we must be right therefore everyone else is automatically wrong.
#dontbuyDMG

Click to expand...

Tricky said:

No NDA was ever signed.
My Evo70 was bought second hand (bought direct from a company clousure), that is the cause of the invoice disputes, over it eating table encoders and sealing of covers to prevent coolant getting into the gear oil sump.

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I need to look up the Evo 70 , ~ But those linear (motor) machines are or can be pretty damn amazing / sexy when they actually work.

Does it use Heidenhain rotary direct read encoders ?

Those are / can be hellatiously expensive like minimally $4000.00 to $6,000.00 a piece.

Probably in the case of a double / multiple read head higher precision rotary encoder for a linear machine you could be talking in the neighborhood of $12K a piece - not including installation.

So if that machine is "Eating encoders" then you could have racked up a bill of the order of $36K ...

To be honest the problems with the Evo you are having sound (superficially) pretty fixable to me ? All be it mild "Rocket surgery".

Total "Mug" that I am ~ Are you planning on selling the machine ?

@Tricky are you looking to replace your Evo 70 with an equivalent machine ?

Tricky said:

I had a Gildemeister that i bought new from them that turned out to be a bit of a lemon.
They agreed to a delivery date of the new machine knowing full well they couldn't deliver it until a month later.
Meanwhile, our old machine was gone and we were left with no turn-mill capacity at the time.
It turned up and didn't work when the engineer was trying to commision it.
Basically it was jinxed from the start.

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The Gildemeister factory isn't far at all from the U.K. ~ Seems you could hire a German tech to commission it properly ?

Sounds "Solvable" @gregormarwick - He's in the U.K. LIKES Gildemeaister very much and bought a newer mill -turn (linear drives an all). Gregor speaks really well of Gildemeister lathes/ turning centers (would have thought the iron would be OK )?.

@Tricky Do you have the model and configuration for your mill turn Gildemeister ?

Tricky said:

This is not even scratching the surface of it.

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Aye...

Tricky said:

We have a couple of Matsuura 5 axis machines, one MAM72-35V and one MX330 PC10 both bought new in the UK, Matsuura have a good repuation of looking after their customers and working to a resolution if things don't go right, its why i bought a 2nd one.

Click to expand...

Yeah Matsuura UK have done an amazing job to build the brand and build a really customer focused business over a number of years very consistently and seemingly in direct coordination with Matsuura Japan , and even "Prescribing" new models that have been successfully built and and sold. Hats off to them definitely. I think the U.K. has some really good price breaks on Matsuura equipment over the USA as the USA is essentially almost a "Continent"

Tricky said:

DMG attitude is we are DMG we must be right therefore everyone else is automatically wrong.
#dontbuyDMG

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^^^ I'm pretty lucky where we are in Colorado / Rockymountain Region my DMG Mori local sales "Peeps" have never steered me wrong really or rather they have steered me away from stuff (all be it rather subtly) as frankly they don't want the hassle either. They know what's good and goes well and also know what would be a bit of an iffy risk for a smaller company to take a risk on. They're pretty diplomatic about that.

I'm not saying that DMG Mori doesn't have a bit of "Precious" attitude coming from certain other quarters (from time to time).

@Tricky

Kinda sounds like your Matsuura MAM's and MX s are paying for your DMG s ?

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Reminds me of a few MTDCNC videos... (on youtube).

I believe Matsuura U.K. have an old equipment trade in scheme for equipment to be applied against new purchases.
(competitive trade in ?) .

If they acquire (for example) DMG Mori equipment what do they do with it then ? Assuming it's still hundreds of thousands of dollars of iron that can't be crushed into a cube ?

Could be an opportunity for someone ?

Bingo ^^^

"Part Exchange"

That would be ironic if DMG Mori inadvertently create a lot of business for Matsuura U.K.

How-a-bout a second MAM 72 ... ?

The OP's a 15+ year PM member, he's not a "September 2020" signup here just to sh*t on a company that he's dissatisfied with.

We all know how devastating it is to buy a piece of major equipment like a 5X or big lathe and discover it's not working correctly. For smaller companies, it can be a literal killer - not being able to meet deliveries while time and energy is tied up in getting the machine operational.

There's plenty of stories of marginal DMG machines being sold and not serviced adequately. Why should a buyer have to suffer for a manufacturer's inability to design, build, and service a tool that should work when delivered?

mutiny said:

Tricky,

Sounds like you've had a rather tough time and some bad experiences. However, your manner of communicating here does not seem genuine -- it instead seems like a rather poor attempt to start a grassroots marketing/canceling campaign against DMG. The use of hashtags after every post does not lend your claims any credence... actually the opposite. It sounds to me like you're a difficult person/customer to deal with so the local DMG reps that have to deal with you on a regular basis aren't doing you any favors. So instead of changing your tune, you're trying to "pressure them" by creating a post on this forum that you can show them later on to prove how unreasonable they're being.

I don't think that's a sound tactic and I don't think it's going to turn out the way you expect. In all likelihood, you're going to continue to work yourself up more, become even less pleasant to deal with, and never get your actual issues resolved.

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OTOH there's a lot of denial all round with DMG Mori - 'cuz one wants the machines to "Be" really really good.

Everybody wants their shiny black and white DMG Mori "Space ship" to be a "Transformative experience" .

The DMU 50 3rd gens seem to be going pretty well, (~ Good design and implementation + experience ) Spendy though.

CMXs (like the 1100V) seem to be going pretty well, (~ Better design having learnt from previous mistakes .)

NLXs seem on whole pretty good with a few occasional hiccups. (~ A lot of subtle improvements mechanically that no one seems to notice.).

On the whole like what @Milland is also pointing at not a great company to take proportionately BIG risks with if you are a "Small fish" .

I'm sure these things go slightly better in their respective host countries , like Japan and Germany.

You have a language barrier, and a training barrier for really complex multi tasking machines.

But as @Milland points to the origin of a lot of these problems is frankly bad design, bad engineering and bad implementation - ALL inflicted on the customer.

And yet the respective dealers and subsidiaries don't have a massive slush fund to make things square / right with their customers.

Sort of 'Piggy in the middle" or is it "Monkey in the middle " type situation where the parent company / corporate HQ does not step in as the local dealers are supposed to be the "Firewall" for all that ?

I apologize, the point of my post was not to suggest that the issues were OP's fault, but rather that this form of communicating them isn't going to help his cause. I still believe that's true. So far we have no knowledge of the specific issues he's facing except for 1) a late delivery with minimal context beyond his assertion that DMG knew they wouldn't be able to deliver on time and 2) vague references to ongoing issues that haven't been addressed adequately.

If the goal of this post was to bring about a change to his experience, IMO he's going about it the wrong way. If it's to let off steam, then carry on...

mutiny said:

I apologize, the point of my post was not to suggest that the issues were OP's fault, but rather that this form of communicating them isn't going to help his cause. I still believe that's true. So far we have no knowledge of the specific issues he's facing except for 1) a late delivery with minimal context beyond his assertion that DMG knew they wouldn't be able to deliver on time and 2) vague references to ongoing issues that haven't been addressed adequately.

If the goal of this post was to bring about a change to his experience, IMO he's going about it the wrong way. If it's to let off steam, then carry on...

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I dunno,

Squeeky wheel + social media + OUTRAGE seems to be the current more expedient "Method" for resolution of one sort or another.

In terms of "Risk" it's a very unlevel playing field / cliff face.

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@Mutiny I think you observed on another thread you started about DMG Mori "Impressions" that the "Record" shows or displays folks that are very happy with their DMG Mori experience and very unhappy with DMG Mori but not much in between. I think that's because no one posts "OK-ish experience more or less with DMG MORI " thread starter / head line ? They just get on with stuff and muddle through more or less in a normal way perhaps ?

There are no "Metrics" or statistics published on "Lemon rates" for particular year and models of machines in different regions.

There's not a world map you can click on for Machine "ratings" .