Turcite replacement on Kitamura

vegard · Jun 12, 2019

Hi,
I recently picked up a Kitamura MyCenter 2, and it is mostly a sweet running machine. I have been going through it, and replaced all the air lines and solenoids, and I am working my way through the lube system, replacing the meter units and lines.
I took the table off to access some of the lube lines, and found the turcite is lifting.

I got one quote for having someone replace it so far and it is pretty high. What should something like this cost?

Just looking at the surfaces in question I would think I could ship the table to someone and they could do it in their shop, possibly even just surface grinding the turcite rather than scraping it.
What do you guys think? And can anyone recommend someone to do the job? I am in Southern California (San Diego)

Thank you

Vegard

Garwood · Jun 12, 2019

What are you going to use the machine for?

My take is that machine isn't worth the cost to repair, but it probably worked just fine before you took it apart. IMO you should put the table right back on there and run it. Probably get another 20 years out of it.

DavidScott · Jun 12, 2019

If the table is that bad I would bet the Z axis Turcite is shot. The X axis should be in the best shape, all things being equal. Strange how much wear there is, did it not have oil there? I'm with Garwood on this, but it sounds like this was a basket case to begin with so no telling what else you will find.

Other Brother · Jun 12, 2019

I think that looks like a decent enough machine and worth the money to fix it the right way. If you aren't in a rush to get it repaired you could host a scraping class that Rich offers in the Machine Reconditioning forum. That would be an awesome project that could be complete in the week long class and a great learning experience for you and anyone else that attends. The host of the class is free.

Like David mentioned, the z-axis might also be bad, but after learning on the x-axis you will be able to repair the other turcite yourself another time.

Daryl

vegard · Jun 12, 2019

Yeah, the machine is worth it. I ran it for a bit the way I got it before digging in, and it is sweet. 2 speed spindle takes a nice cut, and it is very stout.
It looks like it had a lubrication issue on X hence the failure.

Am I wrong in thinking I could ship the table to someone and have it done remotely? seems like if you put it on a surface grinder it would be an easy job to level the turcite after glueup. Its only a 36" long table.

The quote I got was for a tech to do it onsite and included travel expense and their estimate was $10-12K. I was expecting maybe half that. Anybody on here interested in the job?

Although I have a passing interest in doing it myself, I don't really have the time.

Thanks for all the replies.

Other Brother · Jun 12, 2019

The only way someone could do it remotely would be to ship the y-axis saddle. The x-axis ways are part of the y-axis saddle and the only way to fit it would be to send both. That is why the quote was to do the work at your place. The quote was probably for new Turcite and assembling the machine after scraping.

Edit: $10k to $12k seems high for just the x-axis. Was that for x, y, and z axis?

pcasanova · Jun 13, 2019

i used m&m in chatsworth to re-turcite my table and saddle.

M&M CNC Service, Repair and Refurbishing of CNC Milling Machines

was about 6k. for the x,y. they specialize in fadal but it may be worth a call to talk to them.

vegard · Jun 13, 2019

Other Brother- can you help me understand your post- you say it needs to be fitted to the saddle. I would think the ways are square and parallel, so wouldn't the turcite just need to be flat and parallel to the table surface? and generally the right thickness for the ball screw location (although there is wiggle room there)
It seems the "fitting" would be done by setting the gibs and the cam bolts that pull up the keepers. This is probably a moot point, but I am just trying to understand.

Thanks

Vegard

DavidScott · Jun 13, 2019

To do it right you want to start with the Y axis and go up from there. But, if you want to do the minimum amount of work today then just replace the Turcite that is pulling up and scrape it in yourself. You probably will waste less time doing it yourself than arranging for someone else to do it for you, it really isn't that big a deal keeping in mind you are leaving a pretty worn Y axis it sits on so don't get hung up trying to do too good of a job. Is the Turcite on the gibs and side of the table still good? How about the X axis ways after what they did to the Turcite?

Use the saddle to set the table on when gluing the Turcite on and as the reference when scraping if you don't have straight edges.

Have you checked how perpendicular the spindle is to the table before pulling it apart?

Here is a thread that may be of interest.

M.B. Naegle · Jun 13, 2019

vegard said:
Yeah, the machine is worth it. I ran it for a bit the way I got it before digging in, and it is sweet. 2 speed spindle takes a nice cut, and it is very stout.
It looks like it had a lubrication issue on X hence the failure.

Am I wrong in thinking I could ship the table to someone and have it done remotely? seems like if you put it on a surface grinder it would be an easy job to level the turcite after glueup. Its only a 36" long table.

The quote I got was for a tech to do it onsite and included travel expense and their estimate was $10-12K. I was expecting maybe half that. Anybody on here interested in the job?

Although I have a passing interest in doing it myself, I don't really have the time.

Thanks for all the replies.

The Scraping aspect is about more than just getting it level. Scraping also adds necessary oil retention to the surfaces and catches the occasional .0005" errors that come from milling and grinding. Grinding makes things flat, but they end up so flat that there's no room for oil.

IMO, getting it fixed right will give the machine the longest life expectancy, but you might consider how much longer you plan to get out of it? Machine ways can be fixed indefinitely if you have the funds, but the control isn't getting any younger. For sure get the lubrication issue sorted out, but from there you might want to gauge how deep you go.

Vancbiker · Jun 13, 2019

If I owned a 20+ year old Japanese commodity VMC and found the X Turcite peeling off, I'd then look at what the condition of the other sliding surfaces and I'd really have to step back and question whether or not fixing it was a good choice. IF, Y and Z were in great shape I'd probably repair the X using Moglice since IME that is easier for a field repair to get decent geometry. If either Y or Z needed repair too, I'd start looking at a different machine.

Peter from Holland · Jun 13, 2019

See if you can get the right thickness of turcite That makes things much easier Even so if the mating part is longer
Clean and degrease
Glue turcite on using as little glue as possible (glue on the prepared side) Then put the opposite part of the machine on while drying
I would clamp the turcite sideways too as it has the tendency to swim away from its location under pressure
After the glue has cured pullscrape it using the opposite part as a reference Turcite is best pullscraped IMHO
Dont be too carefull while scraping Go at it Just when it almost touches the full lenght get more carefull
Probably just as fast or faster as handling and preparing for transport all the loose parts
Its a used machine No need to do a 100% job and the rest only beeing 60%

Peter

DMF_TomB · Jun 13, 2019

normally when i redo turcite old turcite is removed, its cleaned, turcite epoxied on with special clamps that apply continuous pressure, clamps removed epoxy cleaned up with dynafile.
....part is put in cnc mill aligned to <.0002" per 40" and its machined usually oil grooved milled in as part of program connecting to oil lube holes. other part of slide aligned in cnc mill and machined to remove wear spots often its <.004" wear
.
have no ideal what it costs, obviously have to check oil lube holes not plugged. milled surfaces often closely spaced waves .0003" TIR and most know thats not a bad thing. basically you can create closely spaced waves to hold oil of almost any desired amount of waviness. sometimes the glue surfaces are deliberately made wavy and rough so epoxy and turcite sticks better or stronger to the cast iron

M.B. Naegle · Jun 13, 2019

Peter from Holland said:
See if you can get the right thickness of turcite That makes things much easier Even so if the mating part is longer
Clean and degrease
Glue turcite on using as little glue as possible (glue on the prepared side) Then put the opposite part of the machine on while drying
I would clamp the turcite sideways too as it has the tendency to swim away from its location under pressure
After the glue has cured pullscrape it using the opposite part as a reference Turcite is best pullscraped IMHO
Dont be too carefull while scraping Go at it Just when it almost touches the full lenght get more carefull
Probably just as fast or faster as handling and preparing for transport all the loose parts
Its a used machine No need to do a 100% job and the rest only beeing 60%

Peter

Turcite scrapes really easy too. When I was finishing the bottom of my Hendey lathe cross-slide, I started by taking long strokes to rough it in, then Richard King showed me how to finish scrape it using just the scraper blade and holding it like a pen. Easy to control and it goes fast. I used an old flaking blade to get the right angle when held upright.

Peter from Holland · Jun 13, 2019

That is how I do it also and then pull Not push Less burrs pulling
And you dont need a carbide blade HSS works fine

Peter

joelasefa · Jun 13, 2019

Morarch VMC-75

I am not replying but I am asking question, this is because I new and don't know how to post. My question is recently I bought 1989 monarch vertical VMC-75, I need to ship it to outside of America, need your help how I can do this, including the shipping process.

Mud · Jun 13, 2019

How many times do you normally have to blue up and flip a table like that while scraping to get a good pattern? Assuming a less than journeyman scraper hand, and "so don't get hung up trying to do too good of a job." as stated. I have a machine that may need it on the X and pondering my options.

DavidScott · Jun 13, 2019

M.B. Naegle said:
Turcite scrapes really easy too. When I was finishing the bottom of my Hendey lathe cross-slide, I started by taking long strokes to rough it in, then Richard King showed me how to finish scrape it using just the scraper blade and holding it like a pen. Easy to control and it goes fast. I used an old flaking blade to get the right angle when held upright.
View attachment 258836

Oh I want a video of that showing the technique!

Iridium77 · Jun 13, 2019

DavidScott said:
Oh I want a video of that showing the technique!

Here's a video:YouTube

gmc1724 · Jun 13, 2019

DMF_TomB said:
normally when i redo turcite old turcite is removed, its cleaned, turcite epoxied on with special clamps that apply continuous pressure, clamps removed epoxy cleaned up with dynafile.
....part is put in cnc mill aligned to <.0002" per 40" and its machined usually oil grooved milled in as part of program connecting to oil lube holes. other part of slide aligned in cnc mill and machined to remove wear spots often its <.004" wear
.
have no ideal what it costs, obviously have to check oil lube holes not plugged. milled surfaces often closely spaced waves .0003" TIR and most know thats not a bad thing. basically you can create closely spaced waves to hold oil of almost any desired amount of waviness. sometimes the glue surfaces are deliberately made wavy and rough so epoxy and turcite sticks better or stronger to the cast iron

This is the way to go, I've done many transfer line saddles over the years this way, these things run none-stop and I've never had a come back on them. 10hrs labour max for that job, we'd still charge around £1800-£2200.

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