Pull Stud Broke - Brother Spindle Trashed - Page 16
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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    So, I’m going to throw a little curve ball into what has already been discussed. I’m no arm chair metallurgist, but a thought occurred to me.

    Ever seen a shcs that popped its head?

    Usually a smooth clean break. Will see if I can find one to take a pic.

    Reminded me, I used to maintain a die that would blow the heads off 12mm shcs every run. Not cheap crappy bolts, HK and Unbrako.

    So everyone keeps talking about elongation, but what about repeated hammering? As that face mill repeatedly was pulled from the spindle against the drawbar and drawn back in. That would explain to me the deeper dimples. As the tool was sucked out and the slammed back home repeatedly.

    That pull stud looks very similar to the bolts with busted heads.
    I agree very reminiscent.

    I think that is very valid mechanism but frankly didn't want to touch that one as that is more specific to Brother's approach to absolute elimination of parasitic time...

    When Andy basically makes out that everything is extremely well dialed in on the Brother's to make maximum $ I really believe it.

    I don't want to be too much of a d*ck head but if I only had to replace a $4000.00 spindle once in while that would disappear into background noise in terms of expenses and I'm certainly not a 'Baller", but if I was replacing spindles every week unnecessarily that would be WTF is going on "investigation" (what are we doing wrong ??? ).

    But a lot of people here are stuck between a rock and hard place and can't afford to replace spindles unnecessarily on a regular basis or for simple oversights beyond the normal snafu's of machining.

    Andy has mentioned a lot of good / decent work arounds but that also adds significantly to the price.

    Similarly Frank Mari stresses the need for tool balancing and the service he offers and points out the benefits of the more expensive options … But not everybody wants to pay for that.

    Kinda hard to have it both ways... Cheap but super excellent ???

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    I don't think you picked up what I was put'n down.


    ----------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    Ahhhh , so you are saying they use the cutting load cell jigs to warranty their spindles ?

    Is that what you mean, I did have a sense I didn't catch your drift properly lol (sorry)

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    Every Yamazen salesman has a case of sample parts they carry with them. The parts are a mix of aluminum, 1018 and a 17-4 Condition H900 piece. The case also has a tablet with the videos and the process sheets are available for sharing. We did this to show what normal machining can be accomplished. Nothing dramatic, just what we expect any customer to be able to do. The brochure also has the metal removal rates in it.
    I want to take this to the next level with a more complete group of cutters, holders and feedrates. But the case represents about 50 tools in different materials so it is good start. We are glad to share this information with anyone trying to decide if they want to buy a Brother Speedio.
    Andy, YES, please do produce this information, it would be exceedingly useful!!!

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    Well, to git out of paying for one rather.

    Same is done on modern performance 2 strokes - namely snowmachines.
    The black box can tell the dealer about coolant temp, throttle position, etc....
    So they have more evidence than just a four corner sieze to say that the stuck piston is the opp fault.


    ----------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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  6. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Andy has mentioned a lot of good / decent work arounds but that also adds significantly to the price.

    ???
    What work arounds?

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    This is where Haas shines...you push a Haas and it tells you back off buddy or I'm coming apart...so I back off on my speeds, feeds and tool sizes.

    The along comes a lil spindle robust machine with power, we set it up to run like a Haas...but easier because of the small spindle and holder.

    Machine purrs through it...so we turn up the speeds, feed, DOC and it purs...turn the knobs a little more machines still not sending any signals that we've gone a bit outside the range.

    Heavy duty, but smaller machines that can tackle the work of the next size up machine is an attractive selling point...but comes at a price.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    So everyone keeps talking about elongation, but what about repeated hammering? As that face mill repeatedly was pulled from the spindle against the drawbar and drawn back in. That would explain to me the deeper dimples. As the tool was sucked out and the slammed back home repeatedly.
    If that were happening would that not mark up the taper some? That taper showed no fretting or other indication it had been pushed too hard, at least before it was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    What work arounds?
    You mentioned BBT option BUT one is encouraged buy the air blast (if I have that right) additional $4000.00 to make sure that chips don't accumulate at the contacting surface so that the BBT tool holder makes perfect contact and seats correctly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    Besides the changing of the spindle, you have to add Face Wash. Brother will not sell a dual contact BBT spindle without washing the spindle face and the contact face of the tool holder each time it changes tool. The system holds pressurized air in a cylinder and then pressure washes the faces during tool change. There is a lot to adding the system in the field but very doable. You would have to get service to quote the job.

    List for the upgrades spindle is $6200. The wash system is $4650. Brother is licensed by Big Daishowa, so all gauging is on their system.

    BIG-PLUS SPINDLE SYSTEM:BIG DAISHOWA SEIKI CO LTD

    BROTHERFRANK will tell you to feel the spindle. If it is not to warm to touch and you are not getting excessive run out, run the thing. They do get a bit louder after a bump. Probably also do with hours. You can ask the local service guys if they are not he area to just come by and take a peek if they have time. That one is not under my control.
    Ok "Face Wash" (not air blast) + BBT interface is a lot more rigid / dimensionally more stable system .

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Ok "Face Wash" (not air blast) + BBT interface is a lot more rigid / dimensionally more stable system .
    With much more drawbar tension.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    With much more drawbar tension.
    You sure about that? I haven't seen anything definitive on this from anyone at Yamazen. If there is a stronger drawbar for BBT, and the pullstud is the same between BBT and not-BBT, and the pullstud is OK for BBT, why not use the stronger drawbar for non-BBT?

    Regards.

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    You mentioned BBT option BUT one is encouraged buy the air blast (if I have that right) additional $4000.00 to make sure that chips don't accumulate at the contacting surface so that the BBT tool holder makes perfect contact and seats correctly.
    You have to buy the face wash as part of the BBT assembly but that is not the issue. Most Brothers were build minus BBT (big plus). Most of the instances like this one, are a combination of things but really shit happening that causes a crash. Too fast around the corner so to speak. Not failure of the machine or pull stud but a crash.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finegrain View Post
    You sure about that? I haven't seen anything definitive on this from anyone at Yamazen. If there is a stronger drawbar for BBT, and the pullstud is the same between BBT and not-BBT, and the pullstud is OK for BBT, why not use the stronger drawbar for non-BBT?

    Regards.

    Mike
    It depends on which machine. The HT have more pull force.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Ok "Face Wash" (not air blast) + BBT interface is a lot more rigid / dimensionally more stable system .
    Dimensionally more stable until you go fast. Then the spindles grow out and down, allowing the tool on a standard taper to suck deeper into the spindle but with BBT this sucking up is very limited. This can cause concentricity issues with the holder. Like all things, there are trade offs. Much like high pressure coolant systems. When needed, they are needed but not always is it the best solution. We are taking one instance here and acting like this is a problem with the machine design or pull stud manufacture. I doubt those were even part of the equation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    It depends on which machine. The HT have more pull force.
    So some dual contact Brother spindles have the same drawbar tension as standard spindles?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    You have to buy the face wash as part of the BBT assembly but that is not the issue. Most Brothers were build minus BBT (big plus). Most of the instances like this one, are a combination of things but really shit happening that causes a crash. Too fast around the corner so to speak. Not failure of the machine or pull stud but a crash.
    For sure, just going on the premise BBT means you can push the machine harder "American style" almost without issue.

    I can't find anything that tells you the range of drawbar forces for BBT vs regular 30 taper (in broad strokes without being machine specific) .

    Basic force per unit area, if the dual contact basically has a larger contacting area then one might assume that higher draw bar force is required to maintain the same or equivalent force per unit area (contact pressure). I think that's where David Scot is coming from on that ~ perhaps ?

    It's probably a lot more complicated than that. True compliance for that dual contact system is not trivial or at least that's what Big Kaiser would have one believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    For sure, just going on the premise BBT means you can push the machine harder "American style" almost without issue.

    I can't find anything that tells you the range of drawbar forces for BBT vs regular 30 taper (in broad strokes without being machine specific) .

    Basic force per unit area, if the dual contact basically has a larger contacting area then one might assume that higher draw bar force is required to maintain the same or equivalent force per unit area (contact pressure). I think that's where David Scot is coming from on that ~ perhaps ?

    It's probably a lot more complicated than that. True compliance for that dual contact system is not trivial or at least that's what Big Kaiser would have one believe.
    Big D/K is very strict on the interface dimensions and using their gauging but draw bar force is not part of the standard.

    We have talked about this before. Brother does not publish draw bar forces so I am limited on what I can discuss. BBT will allow the user to push harder but it is not simple. It is not like a BBT30 is equal to a standard BT or Cat 40. at speeds below 12,000 or so, BBT will give you better tool life. It is helpful with reaming, longer tools and boring. It will allow for more aggressive milling but how much of your process needs or can be helped with BBT is just part of the equation.

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  24. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    Dimensionally more stable until you go fast. Then the spindles grow out and down, allowing the tool on a standard taper to suck deeper into the spindle but with BBT this sucking up is very limited. This can cause concentricity issues with the holder. Like all things, there are trade offs. Much like high pressure coolant systems. When needed, they are needed but not always is it the best solution. We are taking one instance here and acting like this is a problem with the machine design or pull stud manufacture. I doubt those were even part of the equation.
    When you say fast, i'm assuming you're talking running at the 16k for extended time?
    Out of interest, do the machines have a spindle chiller?

    The Feelers i had seemed very stable all round.

    The Robodrills i had (Model E) i noticed a little Y drift when constant running and a small amount of Z movement when running at 10k rpm constantly. But they never had a chiller.

    Ultimately neither were really a problem for me because we were a jobbing shop, so 25>50 was the norm, and qty 100 was a large run.


    Edit: - Ref the *how much difference does a BBT make over a BT* question, i've said before that i reckon it makes the spindle 30% more rigid.
    Not from a scientific calculation view, just a keen ear for cutting sound on one machine with and one machine without (both being identical models).
    Both Robodills were identical - one with BBT and one without.
    The first Feeler i bought was BT, and we upgraded that to BBT after the following 2x BBT machines were installed and running. So on both makes and types of machines, i had the same jobs running and could asses a before and after scenario.

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    I am parroting snippets of info I have heard on this forum, that is why I am not sure of the real numbers. Brother drawbar tension numbers are a closely guarded secret but I have been given quite a few clues over the years here.

    As for my Kitamura 30 taper with a dual contact spindle I had Kitamura tell me it should be around 925 lbs. Setco told me the range was 900-1300 lbs a month ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    Big D/K is very strict on the interface dimensions and using their gauging but draw bar force is not part of the standard.

    We have talked about this before. Brother does not publish draw bar forces so I am limited on what I can discuss. BBT will allow the user to push harder but it is not simple. It is not like a BBT30 is equal to a standard BT or Cat 40. at speeds below 12,000 or so, BBT will give you better tool life. It is helpful with reaming, longer tools and boring. It will allow for more aggressive milling but how much of your process needs or can be helped with BBT is just part of the equation.
    Absolutely / for sure , I think most people get that or I would hope they would...

    BBT 30 ≠ Cat 40

    But has several advantages depending on what you are trying to do / need. Obviously with all these things it's a more complex constellation of requirements and capabilities.

    Maybe I'm odd but I try to actually pay attention to what the design intent and intended use of a particular machine is and respect the machine designers for what they set out as the intended purpose of a machine. I try not to violate that and try to make sure I understand what a particular machine is really for.

    I wonder how Mickey-D is getting on with his ball peen hammer and youtube video ?

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