Pull Stud Broke - Brother Spindle Trashed - Page 17
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 17 of 26 FirstFirst ... 71516171819 ... LastLast
Results 321 to 340 of 512
  1. #321
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    West Unity, Ohio
    Posts
    25,441
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5690
    Likes (Received)
    8104

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    Big D/K is very strict on the interface dimensions and using their gauging but draw bar force is not part of the standard.

    We have talked about this before. Brother does not publish draw bar forces so I am limited on what I can discuss. BBT will allow the user to push harder but it is not simple. It is not like a BBT30 is equal to a standard BT or Cat 40. at speeds below 12,000 or so, BBT will give you better tool life. It is helpful with reaming, longer tools and boring. It will allow for more aggressive milling but how much of your process needs or can be helped with BBT is just part of the equation.

    Well then, can we discuss how a fella is s'posed to know if his tension is OK or not if he doesn't know what it's s'posed to be in the firth place?
    I'm amazed that this would be a guarded secret in any way?


    -------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

  2. Likes Finegrain, Mud, digger doug, Bobw, SND liked this post
  3. #322
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    1,863
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1382
    Likes (Received)
    1357

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    When you say fast, i'm assuming you're talking running at the 16k for extended time?
    Out of interest, do the machines have a spindle chiller?

    The Feelers i had seemed very stable all round.

    The Robodrills i had (Model E) i noticed a little Y drift when constant running and a small amount of Z movement when running at 10k rpm constantly. But they never had a chiller.

    Ultimately neither were really a problem for me because we were a jobbing shop, so 25>50 was the norm, and qty 100 was a large run.


    Edit: - Ref the *how much difference does a BBT make over a BT* question, i've said before that i reckon it makes the spindle 30% more rigid.
    Not from a scientific calculation view, just a keen ear for cutting sound on one machine with and one machine without (both being identical models).
    Both Robodills were identical - one with BBT and one without.
    The first Feeler i bought was BT, and we upgraded that to BBT after the following 2x BBT machines were installed and running. So on both makes and types of machines, i had the same jobs running and could asses a before and after scenario.
    27,000 RPM is where you would see it most. No chiller and permanent grease pack spindles. Just an air blow to the back of the spindle to help keep it cool on the 27,000.

  4. #323
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    1,863
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1382
    Likes (Received)
    1357

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Well then, can we discuss how a fella is s'posed to know if his tension is OK or not if he doesn't know what it's s'posed to be in the firth place?
    I'm amazed that this would be a guarded secret in any way?


    -------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    The drawbar is part of the spindle assembly not a separate unit. No need to worry about it. If you are losing force, it is a new spindle need. But because of the construction, that is just not something we see unless there is incredible cycles on the tool changer (think a couple million) or crashes.

  5. Likes Ox liked this post
  6. #324
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,296
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    204
    Likes (Received)
    1257

    Default

    I guess the basic jist is don't try to push these like a 40 taper machine. Seems they would be better suited for faster shallower cuts rather than blasting material with a large endmill. These sound like intriguing machines and when operated within parameters are fast, accurate, and reliable. But with anything, right tool for the job. 2 1.75 water lines may put out the fire, are easier to handle, and can pack a punch...but a 2.5 line is going to do it faster and easier...this would be on an external attack.

  7. #325
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    15,668
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    The drawbar is part of the spindle assembly not a separate unit. No need to worry about it. If you are losing force, it is a new spindle need. But because of the construction, that is just not something we see unless there is incredible cycles on the tool changer (think a couple million) or crashes.
    Your saying people with your spindle doo not replace the components like Bellvilles etc. ?

    And your not in control of the tool that engages YOUR spindle (funny how the customer pays for it the spindle, but you claim to still own it)
    But we cannot check to make sure the drawbar is working properly ?

    Sounds like a leased machine....or should be.

  8. #326
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    1,863
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1382
    Likes (Received)
    1357

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Your saying people with your spindle doo not replace the components like Bellvilles etc. ?

    And your not in control of the tool that engages YOUR spindle (funny how the customer pays for it the spindle, but you claim to still own it)
    But we cannot check to make sure the drawbar is working properly ?

    Sounds like a leased machine....or should be.
    Why would you replace Bellville springs if they last a million tool changes?

  9. #327
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    1,863
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1382
    Likes (Received)
    1357

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    I guess the basic jist is don't try to push these like a 40 taper machine. Seems they would be better suited for faster shallower cuts rather than blasting material with a large endmill. These sound like intriguing machines and when operated within parameters are fast, accurate, and reliable. But with anything, right tool for the job. 2 1.75 water lines may put out the fire, are easier to handle, and can pack a punch...but a 2.5 line is going to do it faster and easier...this would be on an external attack.
    That is if your basic job is fighting fires. machine tools have tool changers because milling is one operation. It is about making money. If the machine makes more money for the investment what should you buy?

  10. #328
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,888
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3413
    Likes (Received)
    794

    Default

    With the J&M pullstuds / retention knobs you have to know the draw bar force so you can set the correct torque for the pull stud.


    Seems part of the drawbar force (in very broad strokes) corresponds to the types of gripper used.

    https://tacrockford.com/pdf/100.311/...ing-forces.pdf

    ^^^ Very broad specs for draw bar forces depending on gripper type. BBT 30 is not delineated from regular 30 taper.


    http://www.onlybusiness.com/Member/j...Chart_2017.pdf

    ^^^ With the J&M torque chart only specifies regular V 30, 40 50 tapers but not BBT.

    Seems the torque is 1/10 th of the drawbar force for generic 30 taper.

    I assume Brother specifies what the correct torque for pull studs needs to be for every spindle variant and corresponding type of pull stud.


    They sell (as you all know) draw bar force gauges, but you have to buy the one that's in the right range of forces :-)

  11. #329
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Country
    TURKEY
    Posts
    5
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default

    Vectric Aspire nasıl programdır ;
    Youtube üzerinde kurulumundan itibaren videoları
    YouTube

    Kurulum : YouTube
    Ve eğitim videoları : YouTube

  12. #330
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    1,863
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1382
    Likes (Received)
    1357

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    With the J&M pullstuds / retention knobs you have to know the draw bar force so you can set the correct torque for the pull stud.


    Seems part of the drawbar force (in very broad strokes) corresponds to the types of gripper used.

    https://tacrockford.com/pdf/100.311/...ing-forces.pdf

    ^^^ Very broad specs for draw bar forces depending on gripper type. BBT 30 is not delineated from regular 30 taper.


    http://www.onlybusiness.com/Member/j...Chart_2017.pdf

    ^^^ With the J&M torque chart only specifies regular V 30, 40 50 tapers but not BBT.

    Seems the torque is 1/10 th of the drawbar force for generic 30 taper.

    I assume Brother specifies what the correct torque for pull studs needs to be for every spindle variant and corresponding type of pull stud.


    They sell (as you all know) draw bar force gauges, but you have to buy the one that's in the right range of forces :-)
    Pull stud torque is set by the tool holder maker not the stud maker.

  13. #331
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,888
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3413
    Likes (Received)
    794

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    Pull stud torque is set by the tool holder maker not the stud maker.
    According to the research by J&M and Kaiser you have to set the pull stud torque in proportion to the draw bar force.

    Tool holders don't set specific drawbar force on a machine.

  14. #332
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    1,863
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1382
    Likes (Received)
    1357

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    According to the research by J&M and Kaiser you have to set the pull stud torque in proportion to the draw bar force.

    Tool holders don't set specific drawbar force on a machine.
    Kaiser will tell you how much force for tool holders for the Brother. As will MST, Lyndex Nikken, NT and others. When you buy holders, they will specify the torque requirements. Not Brother. I guess the assumption would be, the holder manufacturer is expecting you to use their pull studs.

  15. #333
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Wyoming
    Posts
    3,270
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7940
    Likes (Received)
    5268

    Default

    There's an old saying in auto racing: If you have to worry about whether a bolt is strong enough, you need a bigger bolt. This thread has gotten almost microtechnical in blaming the pull stud for wrecking Brother spindles when it's apparent that those machines are being used right at capacity and sometimes beyond. I am reminded of my first year doing warranty welding for the area Case dealer—I spent a lot of time putting various models of Case 580 backhoes back together and mentioned to my boss that those machines must really be junk. He laughed and said, No, they're just so good that they get regularly overloaded. There is not a lot of difference between this discussion and the recurring argument of roller-bearing ways versus box ways: do you prefer to hog metal off in one pass or zing it off in the same elapsed time using ten smaller passes? Each approach has its place. I will say I've never been blessed with a setup resistant enough that it could yank out a Haas CT40.

    But then I never tried an 8-inch flycutter...

  16. Likes bryan_machine, Bobw, mhajicek, SND liked this post
  17. #334
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Florida
    Posts
    3,964
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1591
    Likes (Received)
    1848

    Default

    -----------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox[/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    Why would you replace Bellville springs if they last a million tool changes?
    Can we quote you on that million number please?

    I mean, I don't know what all affects the life of those washers, but I was at one place only a couple years and we replaced them twice in one machine. Let's try a little math while we are at it -

    1 part running say 3 minutes x 3 tools. So approximately 1 tool change per minute (not unheard of, right..?..) 10 hour day x 60 minutes per hour x 85% efficiency = 510 tool changes per day

    =1960 days = a little under 5 years. SO you would need to replace them if you are a high volume shop (those numbers assuming one 50 hour shift per week)

  18. #335
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Florida
    Posts
    3,964
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1591
    Likes (Received)
    1848

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    There's an old saying in auto racing: If you have to worry about whether a bolt is strong enough, you need a bigger bolt. This thread has gotten almost microtechnical in blaming the pull stud for wrecking Brother spindles when it's apparent that those machines are being used right at capacity and sometimes beyond. I am reminded of my first year doing warranty welding for the area Case dealer—I spent a lot of time putting various models of Case 580 backhoes back together and mentioned to my boss that those machines must really be junk. He laughed and said, No, they're just so good that they get regularly overloaded. There is not a lot of difference between this discussion and the recurring argument of roller-bearing ways versus box ways: do you prefer to hog metal off in one pass or zing it off in the same elapsed time using ten smaller passes? Each approach has its place. I will say I've never been blessed with a setup resistant enough that it could yank out a Haas CT40.

    But then I never tried an 8-inch flycutter...
    I've never seen (in person) a holder pull out from a 40 taper either. Either the machine alarms out, or a part gets thrown. I was one time running a "quick and dirty job" of facing down some parts about .12" or so. Cruising along fine with two passes (rough and finish) with a 2 or 3" face mill. Anywho, got a part that for some reason was about .25" larger than the rest. Loaded it up, hit cycle start, hear a god awful cut, turn and look then the machine quit on an overload alarm. Was trying to take about .38" the first pass. Didn;t like it so the machine quit. No wrecked spindle, no drama...

    Not blaming 30 tapers here (even though I think the OP's cut was too aggressive), just thinking something awful bad happened BEFORE that pull stud broke (and that is what made it break, not shoddy craftsmanship)....

  19. Likes Oldwrench, empwoer liked this post
  20. #336
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    1,863
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1382
    Likes (Received)
    1357

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    -----------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox


    Can we quote you on that million number please?

    I mean, I don't know what all affects the life of those washers, but I was at one place only a couple years and we replaced them twice in one machine. Let's try a little math while we are at it -

    1 part running say 3 minutes x 3 tools. So approximately 1 tool change per minute (not unheard of, right..?..) 10 hour day x 60 minutes per hour x 85% efficiency = 510 tool changes per day

    =1960 days = a little under 5 years. SO you would need to replace them if you are a high volume shop (those numbers assuming one 50 hour shift per week)[/QUOTE]

    The 10k spindle lasts a long time. We just don't see a bunch of spindles needing to be replaced because of draw bar fatigue. I pulled the million out of my ass as a reference. We know how many machines we have in the US and how many spindles we go through. Not that many. Ask the users here what their experience is. I have a customer with a 12 second cycle and two shifts. 3 machines. I don't think we have done a spindle yet on any of the three machines after 6 years.

    We are going down a rabbit hole because of the prior experience of people buying less robust machines. Most Brother machines will make one part for their life. 7-10 years of 24/7 production with tool changes in the millions. They have to run or production lines go down. Worrying about Bellville springs is ridiculous.

  21. Likes Ox liked this post
  22. #337
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Oregon
    Posts
    1,868
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    757
    Likes (Received)
    2204

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I mean, I don't know what all affects the life of those washers, but I was at one place only a couple years and we replaced them twice in one machine. Let's try a little math while we are at it -

    1 part running say 3 minutes x 3 tools. So approximately 1 tool change per minute (not unheard of, right..?..) 10 hour day x 60 minutes per hour x 85% efficiency = 510 tool changes per day
    Andy's number is way low.

    I have one Speedio cell doing a 45 second cycle time steel part with 8 tool changes. 2 machines, sharing a robot/infeed system, loaded in about 15 seconds. Running 24/7 for the last 6 months. That would be ~ 1,800,000 tool changes so far, times 2 spindles.

    It is sitting next to a Robodrill cell, making the same part in 60 seconds of cycle time ( ::cough:: ) that has been at it for 2 years, so probably well into the 5 million tool change range.

    For all the bellyaching about these machines, the reality is that if you don't fuck up and crash them, they run with the reliability of a wood burning stove. Like I said, they print money.

  23. Likes Ox, 2outof3, J Gilles, Fal Grunt, BROTHERFRANK and 3 others liked this post
  24. #338
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Washington
    Posts
    2,938
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1140
    Likes (Received)
    1189

    Default

    I thought they were coil springs? Not belvilles.

  25. #339
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    707
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    230
    Likes (Received)
    399

    Default

    Brother clamp shafts (draw bar) use a die spring not Belleville washers for the record. I have never seen someone need to replace the spring.

  26. #340
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Hillsboro, New Hampshire
    Posts
    7,759
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1813
    Likes (Received)
    5460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BROTHERFRANK View Post
    Brother clamp shafts (draw bar) use a die spring not Belleville washers for the record. I have never seen someone need to replace the spring.
    Are the die springs so closely constrained in the spindle bore that runnout and unbalance are never an issue? In that case, what about rubbing wear?


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •