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    Default Pushing your Speedio

    So with all the talk in the other thread about broken pull studs lets start a new discussion on hard are you pushing your Speedio/Robodrill (BT30).

    I have not broken a pull stud (Running High torque pull studs) but I am getting major Fretting. I have always noticed it since i bought the machine new.

    I was also talked out of Big plus which now i wish i bought it.

    The last job I was running a bunch of 1" thick 6061 plate and lost a endmill 3/4 of the way through the job. When I pulled the tool the holder was very fretted. Pioneer SX16 with a 3/8" Diamondback 1"LOC. Was doing 16Krpm, 1" deep., .100 stepover and 300ipm. Not a huge cut.

    I run a 2" Korloy ripper at 16k 1.9 stepover .125 deep at 175ipm and way less fretting on the holder.

    I run a 1/2" 1.5"LOC Diamondback at 1.5" deep .100 stepover and 250ipm.

    So now I'm thinking these cuts are way too much for Non Big plus spindle. Maybe even Big plus.

    How hard is everyone pushing and what do your holder look like standard or Big plus.

    Also looks like my spindle is trashed now.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20191119_091841.jpg   20191018_173814.jpg   20191119_100013.jpg   20191119_113727.jpg  

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    Sure dual contact would help. How much is hard to say. Have you condsidered going to a shorter gage length tool holder. That may do the trick. The holder you show isn't long by any means, but shorter are available and would only help.

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    The only tool I've had show any fretting is my 2.5" face mill holder. I used it to machine some long steel slabs that turned out to have a lot of flex due to how they were bolted against a fixture. But the fretting is really minimal and only shows on the base of that holder. Spindle looks fine.

    I have a 10k RPM standard spindle. You're in Eugene? I'm up in Tigard, there's a few Brother owners local to the area.

    I run a 3/8"x1" Helical 35-deg rougher at 350ipm, 1" deep, .08" stepover, out of one of Frank's stubby holders.
    I run a 3/8"x1.25" Helical 35-deg rougher at 300ipm, 1.25" deep, .06" stepover out of a YG1 Hydraulic holder. That's a pretty long gage length and I've backed off of using that combination, but it didn't show any issues.

    I wouldn't run an SX16 holder for roughing but that's my preference. On the BT30 I really like the stubby endmill holders from Frank. I also use some Lyndex-Nikken EM holders that have a longer gage length.

    It looks like you might have had one tool start an issue in the spindle, then other tools that go into the spindle are being affected by damage to the spindle. The harm looks pretty minimal and I bet you could stone that damage out and run with it.

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    That is some nasty fretting! I have learned that when you see fretting, PANIC!!! It will only get worse so stop whatever you are doing that is causing it. Yes, gage length will fix your problem. The best is the super stubby sidelock holders from MariTool, nothing compares. It took me 20 years to get over the idea that sidelocks are inferior to collets, but I am over it and use them quite a lot with no complaints. If I want a flat in the cutter I just whip out the air grinder with a 60 grit diamond pin in it and make one, takes about 20 seconds for a 1/4" cutter. Another big advantage to sidelocks is there is no big collet nut to keep the coolant from getting to the end mill.

    Oh, and if you are doing a finish cut with a different mill try a corncob rougher, way less cutting force than the psudo-rougher Diamond Backs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DethloffMfg View Post
    It looks like you might have had one tool start an issue in the spindle, then other tools that go into the spindle are being affected by damage to the spindle. The harm looks pretty minimal and I bet you could stone that damage out and run with it.
    Yes, and the damage is missing metal, nothing to stone off. That spindle needs to be reground, worth sending to Setco vs local IMO.

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    I don't really push my S700. The savings I could get pushing it harder aren't enough to justify the cost of spindle replacement.

    As an example with 7075:

    12 mm end mill, 3 flutes.
    6200 rpm
    3700 mmpm
    DOC: 29 mm
    Step Over: 0.6 mm

    For facing I'm using a 2" Korloy ripper also:

    6300 rpm
    5000 mmpm
    DOC: 0.6 - 0.8 mm.

    Standard BT30. No fritting marks.

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    That fretting would worry me to death...
    Try a GARR knuckle form cutter (ARC series) or a MA Ford series 134 which makes mince meat out the ally. It will lower your cut forces and could cure the fretting.
    I would rough at 10k RPM in one of Franks short and stubby sidelock. But it's only be running at around 220 Inches feed (5500mm/min) and this would be BBT spindle NOT plain taper...

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    Interesting to note how much of the taper is supported in the spindle, looks just like my Enshu. I would be dealing with the spindle taper before buying any new tool holders, and once you do you need to toss the ones with fretting. Been there done that, and it is hard.

    I think for a 3/8" corncob MA Ford is the best, but I haven't tried Garr. For 1/4"-3/16" I really like Garr. Garr has an interesting tooth form, more like a threadmill than the rounded teeth of most corncob mills. I had a job where I was slotting .22" deep with a 3/16" Garr rougher 120 ipm at 6k. I could have gone much faster if I had more coolant pressure, I just couldn't clear the chips well enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DethloffMfg View Post
    You're in Eugene? I'm up in Tigard, there's a few Brother owners local to the area.
    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    Interesting to note how much of the taper is supported in the spindle, looks just like my Enshu. I would be dealing with the spindle taper before buying any new tool holders, and once you do you need to toss the ones with fretting. Been there done that, and it is hard.

    I think for a 3/8" corncob MA Ford is the best, but I haven't tried Garr. For 1/4"-3/16" I really like Garr. Garr has an interesting tooth form, more like a threadmill than the rounded teeth of most corncob mills. I had a job where I was slotting .22" deep with a 3/16" Garr rougher 120 ipm at 6k. I could have gone much faster if I had more coolant pressure, I just couldn't clear the chips well enough.
    I already run chip breakers in all my roughers, Destiny Diamondbacks. I have also ran Swiftcarb ramp mills.

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    Destiny Diamondbacks and Swiftcarb ramp mills are rougher/finishers, not to be confused with a real rougher. Before I drank the Coolaid I used to use Diamondbacks for roughing, I still have a few new that I haven't touched in years, probably never will. Nearly all of my machining limitations are holding onto the part so corncob mills rule the roost for roughing in my shop. All BT30 spindles here too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    Interesting to note how much of the taper is supported in the spindle, looks just like my Enshu. I would be dealing with the spindle taper before buying any new tool holders, and once you do you need to toss the ones with fretting. Been there done that, and it is hard.

    I think for a 3/8" corncob MA Ford is the best, but I haven't tried Garr. For 1/4"-3/16" I really like Garr. Garr has an interesting tooth form, more like a threadmill than the rounded teeth of most corncob mills. I had a job where I was slotting .22" deep with a 3/16" Garr rougher 120 ipm at 6k. I could have gone much faster if I had more coolant pressure, I just couldn't clear the chips well enough.
    My experience = MA Ford were great for 14mm & 12mm dia.
    The GARR are great for 12mm and below, because their 'knuckles" are finer.
    An 8mm dia MA Ford is all knuckle and just doesn't look that strong a cutter, purely because the knuckles are so big.
    Also, the MA Fords and GARRs would be run same speed and feed (and would show the same load on the control).

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    Destiny Diamondbacks and Swiftcarb ramp mills are rougher/finishers, not to be confused with a real rougher. Before I drank the Coolaid I used to use Diamondbacks for roughing, I still have a few new that I haven't touched in years, probably never will. Nearly all of my machining limitations are holding onto the part so corncob mills rule the roost for roughing in my shop. All BT30 spindles here too.
    I've heard you say that before... so I tried getting a decent wall finish out of the Diamondback, and it was a total no-go. How anyone could use that as a "finished" surface is totally beyond me.

    While I might agree it isn't a rougher in the classic sense, only a fucking butcher would call a final wall it has machined "finished."

    Fraisa has a new aluminum rougher they have developed. 30 degree helix, fully serated, coolant hole down the middle, extra strong core. They seem to have figured out a way to get the sheer action of a high helix mill (like the Diamondback) without the vertical pulling force that makes high helix stuff a bit risky to run.

    I have a set on order, I'll see what the pricing is when they arrive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    I've heard you say that before... so I tried getting a decent wall finish out of the Diamondback, and it was a total no-go. How anyone could use that as a "finished" surface is totally beyond me.

    While I might agree it isn't a rougher in the classic sense, only a fucking butcher would call a final wall it has machined "finished."
    They work if you tumble the parts enough, and don't mind some "witness" marks. Something you can make work when you have a 45 second chip to chip toolchange. Personally I don't have any use for rougher/finishers.

    Diamondbacks, and other rougher/finishers are a lot closer to a finish mill than a rougher. Corncob roughers not only cut with less side pressure they pull up much less. I was just looking at both the MA Ford and Garr sites, for a 3/8" corncob Ford says .01"-.035" per tooth and Garr was .001"-.0025", I know from experience Ford's are the one to follow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    I was just looking at both the MA Ford and Garr sites, for a 3/8" corncob Ford says .01"-.035" per tooth and Garr was .001"-.0025", I know from experience Ford's are the one to follow.
    It's like the Garr copywriter didn't believe the engineer's suggestions, and added an extra "0" to the IPT values.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    It's like the Garr copywriter didn't believe the engineer's suggestions, and added an extra "0" to the IPT values.
    And MA Fords copywritier figured roughers and finishers should feed the same.

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    To The OP's question ...

    I did get some moderate fretting ~1 year ago, on a steel job. Even though I was running fairly conservative feed & speed, everything got pretty hot and I got some fretting on the toolholder, which I tossed. That freaked me out at the time, but I figured I might as well just keep running and see how it goes. That was a year ago, and I have sent 1000's of parts through the machine since, many with high aesthetic and accuracy requirements, so whatever I did to the spindle has so far not manifested in any issues.

    Regards.

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigtoy302 View Post
    So with all the talk in the other thread about broken pull studs lets start a new discussion on hard are you pushing your Speedio/Robodrill (BT30).

    I have not broken a pull stud (Running High torque pull studs) but I am getting major Fretting. I have always noticed it since i bought the machine new.

    I was also talked out of Big plus which now i wish i bought it.

    The last job I was running a bunch of 1" thick 6061 plate and lost a endmill 3/4 of the way through the job. When I pulled the tool the holder was very fretted. Pioneer SX16 with a 3/8" Diamondback 1"LOC. Was doing 16Krpm, 1" deep., .100 stepover and 300ipm. Not a huge cut.

    I run a 2" Korloy ripper at 16k 1.9 stepover .125 deep at 175ipm and way less fretting on the holder.

    I run a 1/2" 1.5"LOC Diamondback at 1.5" deep .100 stepover and 250ipm.

    So now I'm thinking these cuts are way too much for Non Big plus spindle. Maybe even Big plus.

    How hard is everyone pushing and what do your holder look like standard or Big plus.

    Also looks like my spindle is trashed now.
    I run almost those exact parameters with an SGS S-carb, in a 60mm gage SK16. (seriously, exact same speeds/feeds, stepover, DOC).
    Couple hundred parts/day for 10 months straight. No fretting. Tapers still look new (knock on wood).

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    I have broken a pull stud, and don't have big plus spindles either, but I've never seen fretting like that on any of my machines, and I'll push them that hard.

    Are your pull studs torqued properly? If so, have you checked your drawbar tension? Any chance you got a counterfeit holder somehow?

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    I got some fretting when I was roughing in a ER32 collet (3/8 rougher 1.25" mostly) My local Yamazen apps eng. told me some is normal. I still use the toolholder on something lighter duty (maybe I should retire it). I switched to roughing in a Maritool sidelocks and the holders look perfect and they've been running for a good while. My holders don't all look perfect. After that pull stud thread, I've gone through and retorqued all my studs (and swapped a bunch out for high strength version) to a lower torque and a dab of loctite. I probably had them all overtorqued which I've read is not good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigtoy302 View Post
    So with all the talk in the other thread about broken pull studs lets start a new discussion on hard are you pushing your Speedio/Robodrill (BT30).

    I have not broken a pull stud (Running High torque pull studs) but I am getting major Fretting. I have always noticed it since i bought the machine new.

    I was also talked out of Big plus which now i wish i bought it.

    The last job I was running a bunch of 1" thick 6061 plate and lost a endmill 3/4 of the way through the job. When I pulled the tool the holder was very fretted. Pioneer SX16 with a 3/8" Diamondback 1"LOC. Was doing 16Krpm, 1" deep., .100 stepover and 300ipm. Not a huge cut.

    I run a 2" Korloy ripper at 16k 1.9 stepover .125 deep at 175ipm and way less fretting on the holder.

    I run a 1/2" 1.5"LOC Diamondback at 1.5" deep .100 stepover and 250ipm.

    So now I'm thinking these cuts are way too much for Non Big plus spindle. Maybe even Big plus.

    How hard is everyone pushing and what do your holder look like standard or Big plus.

    Also looks like my spindle is trashed now.
    That part I bolded is a pretty big cut to me, for the cutter size, width of cut, depth of cut, and extension. I've not put it on HSM Advisor, as I don't have a copy on the confuser at home. Just my gut reaction says that.
    As others have noted, shorten the holder as much as possible and use a true rougher. Oh yeah, for sure only a sidelock.
    Good luck!

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