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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglemike View Post
    That part I bolded is a pretty big cut to me, for the cutter size, width of cut, depth of cut, and extension.
    The 3/8" Diamondback cut is my standard recipe. I'll even go to 350IPM just for fun if the workholding/part are up to it and I've run it a bit.

    Everyone is looking at the problem cut, and ignoring this one:

    I run a 2" Korloy ripper at 16k 1.9 stepover .125 deep at 175ipm and way less fretting on the holder.

    This cut is on the margin for a Speedio with a standard spindle. It is a 10hp cut (the machine is 13hp), but this will put maximum strain on the spindle taper, and there is no process margin if the workholding bucks on you. As much as I like the Ripper, one problem it has is that it is a bit long, so you usually get 2" of effective gauge length on the holder, plus another 1.5" on the Ripper. That is a LOT of leverage on the spindle interface.

    Face mills are *not* the best way to remove material in a Speedio. If you have a wide surface area to deck off, and you want a better MRR than a rougher can give you, use a 1"-1.25" inserted end mill running shallow, wide, and fast. On my machine, I use a 1", 3 flute AB Shear hog modular head, but I also have a lot of time with the Big Kaiser FCR. The Shear Hog is great because the design is kinda old and emphasizes very free cutting action (from it's roots as a single flute tool used on Bridgeports), a good combination for a standard spindle. The FCR is fantastic if you've got Big+ and is a one-piece tool that you can run hard.

    Some parameters in 6061 as examples

    ShearHog: 6000RPM & 225IPM with a 0.9" WOC and running .125" deep. Solid process reliability, low horsepower and taking 25 cubes all day long.

    FCR: 8000RPM at 275IPM, same engagement, but the higher speed gives 30 cubes of MRR at a still reliable 7.5hp cut.

    You can still use big-ass face mills for finishing (3" or even 4" if you so wish), but these really are for finishing - when you need super perfect surfaces. As fast an RPM as the material can take, and depths in the .005"-.010" range. I don't work with a lot of steel, but the Sandvik Century, Big Kaiser Speed Finisher, OSG Disk Cutter are the place to be (especially with PCD inserts). These are a buy-once/cry-once kinda item, but worth it in the aluminums.

    The Speedio is not an MRR demon. The deal you make with this machine is that it gives up power/rigidity in the big roughing section of a process in exchange for a literal decimation of non-engagement cycle time (transfers, tool changes, intra-op linking moves, HSM cut reengagements). They absolutely dominate working on castings/forgings, but they will lose if you need to take a 10# block of material and turning it into a finished 2# part.

  2. #22
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    Throw that Pioneer shit in the scrap hopper and buy some of Franks holders.

    Previous shop I worked at had all sorts of fretting on their holders, all the Pioneer ones. Owner didn’t want to spend the 10/25% more to get US Made tool holders from MariTool.

    Not a SINGLE one of those holders met the published numbers, and after repeated phone calls the company I dealt with sent a Pioneer salesman out to meet with me. He started off with the company line on Quality blah blah blah. I made him sit and watch me go through holder after holder to show that they didn’t meet the published spec. About an hour into it he cried uncle and begged me to stop.

    He said my expectations were too high. It’s in your book right here sir! Your expectations are too high he kept repeating.

    He flipped open a Pioneer catalog to their SX line, he told me to pick any 4 holders and a full set of collets. On the house. Those 4 BARELY met the published tolerance.

    Garbage.

    Buy some of Franks holders, install your pull studs with a torque wrench and shorten up your gauge length if possible.

    I only use larger tools when I need the reach. My 3/8” is my most used rougher. I use corncob roughest from Guhring and Garr.

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    The 3/8" Diamondback cut is my standard recipe. I'll even go to 350IPM just for fun if the workholding/part are up to it and I've run it a bit.

    Everyone is looking at the problem cut, and ignoring this one:

    I run a 2" Korloy ripper at 16k 1.9 stepover .125 deep at 175ipm and way less fretting on the holder.

    This cut is on the margin for a Speedio with a standard spindle. It is a 10hp cut (the machine is 13hp), but this will put maximum strain on the spindle taper, and there is no process margin if the workholding bucks on you. As much as I like the Ripper, one problem it has is that it is a bit long, so you usually get 2" of effective gauge length on the holder, plus another 1.5" on the Ripper. That is a LOT of leverage on the spindle interface.

    Face mills are *not* the best way to remove material in a Speedio. If you have a wide surface area to deck off, and you want a better MRR than a rougher can give you, use a 1"-1.25" inserted end mill running shallow, wide, and fast. On my machine, I use a 1", 3 flute AB Shear hog modular head, but I also have a lot of time with the Big Kaiser FCR. The Shear Hog is great because the design is kinda old and emphasizes very free cutting action (from it's roots as a single flute tool used on Bridgeports), a good combination for a standard spindle. The FCR is fantastic if you've got Big+ and is a one-piece tool that you can run hard.

    Some parameters in 6061 as examples

    ShearHog: 6000RPM & 225IPM with a 0.9" WOC and running .125" deep. Solid process reliability, low horsepower and taking 25 cubes all day long.

    FCR: 8000RPM at 275IPM, same engagement, but the higher speed gives 30 cubes of MRR at a still reliable 7.5hp cut.

    You can still use big-ass face mills for finishing (3" or even 4" if you so wish), but these really are for finishing - when you need super perfect surfaces. As fast an RPM as the material can take, and depths in the .005"-.010" range. I don't work with a lot of steel, but the Sandvik Century, Big Kaiser Speed Finisher, OSG Disk Cutter are the place to be (especially with PCD inserts). These are a buy-once/cry-once kinda item, but worth it in the aluminums.

    The Speedio is not an MRR demon. The deal you make with this machine is that it gives up power/rigidity in the big roughing section of a process in exchange for a literal decimation of non-engagement cycle time (transfers, tool changes, intra-op linking moves, HSM cut reengagements). They absolutely dominate working on castings/forgings, but they will lose if you need to take a 10# block of material and turning it into a finished 2# part.
    IMHO, the OP's using a collet (1st tool showing the fretting, right?), and not a short side lock, combined with the length of cut and .100 stepover and feedrate, is the problem. Can likely get away with everything else - but if it was me, at 1" engaged length, I'd reduce the stepover and use a sidelock, and zero problems. Obviously, YMMV.
    ETA: I just put those numbers in HSM Advisor. The way I see it, doesn't look good. Too much width for the length.
    Maybe you guys can edumacte me. I still think that feed rate and engagement for a 3/8 em is out there.

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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Throw that Pioneer shit in the scrap hopper and buy some of Franks holders.

    Previous shop I worked at had all sorts of fretting on their holders, all the Pioneer ones. Owner didnít want to spend the 10/25% more to get US Made tool holders from MariTool.

    Not a SINGLE one of those holders met the published numbers, and after repeated phone calls the company I dealt with sent a Pioneer salesman out to meet with me. He started off with the company line on Quality blah blah blah. I made him sit and watch me go through holder after holder to show that they didnít meet the published spec. About an hour into it he cried uncle and begged me to stop.

    He said my expectations were too high. Itís in your book right here sir! Your expectations are too high he kept repeating.

    He flipped open a Pioneer catalog to their SX line, he told me to pick any 4 holders and a full set of collets. On the house. Those 4 BARELY met the published tolerance.

    Garbage.

    Buy some of Franks holders, install your pull studs with a torque wrench and shorten up your gauge length if possible.

    I only use larger tools when I need the reach. My 3/8Ē is my most used rougher. I use corncob roughest from Guhring and Garr.
    Hmmm. All my Pioneer stuff looks great. I have checked run out and everything was spot on. Mari did not have his SK when I bought all this or I would of got his.

    There is a member one here who sells another version and those are absolute garbage. Bought them and sent them back.

    At this point I need to get a Big plus spindle installed and by all new holders, but for now i have to limp it along.

    I plan on getting some short sidelocks for this job next time. The short sidelocks will not reach the vise on a speedio though.

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    Bigtoy, I'm using sidelocks on my Speedios. Some of my vises are Chick, which are taller than the typical Kurt. I also have a few of the Orange vises with their riser plate. They are pretty wonderful - the Chick are very useful as well.
    I'm going to make some riser plates for some 4" double jaw Glacern vises I have too. These can actually be set up as a standard single jaw, or reverse single jaw. I've used them as reverse and double. These are pretty darn handy for smaller work, and lighter than a lot of vises, lowering the overall weight of the tool holding. Sometimes people forget how much this stuff weighs - it adds up.

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    The spindle not getting close enough to the table is a common problem with drill/tap machines, just have to put the vise on risers. I have had 1/4" mills squeal like hell cutting steel in a 60mm projection ER16 holder but work fine in a 50mm projection ER11 holder, projection is everything with 30 tapers. True the more drawbar tension the more projection you can get away with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigtoy302 View Post
    Hmmm. All my Pioneer stuff looks great. I have checked run out and everything was spot on. Mari did not have his SK when I bought all this or I would of got his.

    There is a member one here who sells another version and those are absolute garbage. Bought them and sent them back.

    At this point I need to get a Big plus spindle installed and by all new holders, but for now i have to limp it along.

    I plan on getting some short sidelocks for this job next time. The short sidelocks will not reach the vise on a speedio though.
    You must be the lucky type. I did not have a single ER holder that met the published .0002” runout. Most were over double the published number, some were approaching .001” runout. Then throw in one of their crappy collets and you could get near .002” runout.

    I just bought a 1/4 EM holder that is a pioneer, new sealed in the package, because it was $30. I haven’t blued the taper up, but I will be curious to see what it looks like. If I get a chance this weekend I will blue it up and check runout.

    Even standard sidelocks would be better in my opinion. Somebody smarter than me can explain the numbers, I’ve always operated on the rule that gauge length is exponentially detrimental. It isn’t exponential. Close enough for me.

    I don’t think you NEED a big plus, would it help, sure, but it isn’t necessary.

    Make yourself a hypothetical cost justification. What’s the payout?

    When I NEED a new spindle, I will probably upgrade to Big Plus, but I cut primarily steel and do a lot of long reach. Unless I NEED a new spindle, I doubt I will have $10k laying around not sure what to do with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Throw that Pioneer shit in the scrap hopper and buy some of Franks holders.

    Previous shop I worked at had all sorts of fretting on their holders, all the Pioneer ones. Owner didn’t want to spend the 10/25% more to get US Made tool holders from MariTool.

    Not a SINGLE one of those holders met the published numbers, and after repeated phone calls the company I dealt with sent a Pioneer salesman out to meet with me. He started off with the company line on Quality blah blah blah. I made him sit and watch me go through holder after holder to show that they didn’t meet the published spec. About an hour into it he cried uncle and begged me to stop.

    He said my expectations were too high. It’s in your book right here sir! Your expectations are too high he kept repeating.

    He flipped open a Pioneer catalog to their SX line, he told me to pick any 4 holders and a full set of collets. On the house. Those 4 BARELY met the published tolerance.

    Garbage.

    Buy some of Franks holders, install your pull studs with a torque wrench and shorten up your gauge length if possible.

    I only use larger tools when I need the reach. My 3/8” is my most used rougher. I use corncob roughest from Guhring and Garr.
    Hmmm, really?
    I use a sheet-ton of Accupro CAT40 holders. Last I knew, they were made by Pioneer.
    Every single one I have checked has been well within spec. And, the quality of fit/finish is very good.
    I also have a couple Pioneer ER32 holders I snagged cheap off ebay. They look/measure identical to all my Accupro holders.

    Maybe you got a bad apple? It happens.

    I absolutely love Frank's stuff as well.
    But, I have at least one side-lock holder of his, with a tight bore that I can't even get a tool in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    I absolutely love Frank's stuff as well.
    But, I have at least one side-lock holder of his, with a tight bore that I can't even get a tool in.
    Psst: It's actually a shrink holder...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    You must be the lucky type. I did not have a single ER holder that met the published .0002Ē runout. Most were over double the published number, some were approaching .001Ē runout. Then throw in one of their crappy collets and you could get near .002Ē runout.

    I just bought a 1/4 EM holder that is a pioneer, new sealed in the package, because it was $30. I havenít blued the taper up, but I will be curious to see what it looks like. If I get a chance this weekend I will blue it up and check runout.

    Even standard sidelocks would be better in my opinion. Somebody smarter than me can explain the numbers, Iíve always operated on the rule that gauge length is exponentially detrimental. It isnít exponential. Close enough for me.

    I donít think you NEED a big plus, would it help, sure, but it isnít necessary.

    Make yourself a hypothetical cost justification. Whatís the payout?

    When I NEED a new spindle, I will probably upgrade to Big Plus, but I cut primarily steel and do a lot of long reach. Unless I NEED a new spindle, I doubt I will have $10k laying around not sure what to do with.
    Maybe you got a bad batch. I just tossed a sx16 in and still measures .0002 runout with the taper smoked.

    At this point i need to replace the spindle so Big plus is a logical step. The bottom .188 of the taper longer touches the tool holder. Checked with a almost new Mari ER chuck.

    I don't think this is a gauge length issue per say. My facemill is longer and does not show much fretting. Way harder of a cut. I think I am overpowering the draw bar from the Diamondback pulling down. If these are only 400lbs that makes sense. I think i am going to make a draw bar force gauge and check. Brother will not tell you how much.

    My face mill is never in the cut more than a few seconds. The Diamondback was in that cut for around 5min per part.

    I'm also looking at different roughing endmills.

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    It is a gage length issue. If you don't believe us at least keep this in mind.

    I, as well as many here, would like to know what force you measure. 400 lbs is pretty damn light if that is what it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    Hmmm, really?
    I use a sheet-ton of Accupro CAT40 holders. Last I knew, they were made by Pioneer.
    Every single one I have checked has been well within spec. And, the quality of fit/finish is very good.
    I also have a couple Pioneer ER32 holders I snagged cheap off ebay. They look/measure identical to all my Accupro holders.

    Maybe you got a bad apple? It happens.

    I absolutely love Frank's stuff as well.
    But, I have at least one side-lock holder of his, with a tight bore that I can't even get a tool in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigtoy302 View Post
    Maybe you got a bad batch. I just tossed a sx16 in and still measures .0002 runout with the taper smoked.
    I don’t know. . . be pretty bad luck to get a bad batch per say. They had somewhere between maybe 20 and 30 holders purchased over a year when I started, and over the next 18 months I added another 20 or so? Between those 40-50 holders purchased over two and a half years, not one met the .0002” spec published in the book.

    Machine was 1 year old when I started, a Doosan Big Plus, near zero spindle run out with a .0001” indicator.

    Just my opinion, I’ve been wrong before

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigtoy302 View Post
    If these are only 400lbs that makes sense. I think i am going to make a draw bar force gauge and check. Brother will not tell you how much.
    I thought somebody said the numbers in the pull stud thread. I went back looking but couldn't find it. I thought they had each type of machine and they measure 400 and 700.

    I'm in no hurry to go dual contact. You have to add face wash and all that, so I'm guessing it's a large investment. I can probably replace my base 10k spindle a few times for the same price.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    The spindle not getting close enough to the table is a common problem with drill/tap machines, just have to put the vise on risers. ......
    Mori handled that pretty nicely on the TV30. As standard it has a 50mm thick T slotted table bolted to the main drilled/tapped table. If ordered with a 4th axis then that "second table" is omitted and the 4th fitted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmosK View Post
    I thought somebody said the numbers in the pull stud thread. I went back looking but couldn't find it. I thought they had each type of machine and they measure 400 and 700.

    I'm in no hurry to go dual contact. You have to add face wash and all that, so I'm guessing it's a large investment. I can probably replace my base 10k spindle a few times for the same price.
    I am not aware of anyone ever saying definitively what the drawbar tension is but from what hints I have picked up over the years the standard spindle is 600-700ish and dual contact is more. I am pretty sure they are well above 400lbs. My Enshu was 400lbs and is now 500lbs after the last rebuild. If Speedios were in that range you would be hearing a lot more about fretting and pulled tool holders.

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    Dumb question here- how are you all holding these 1" shank Ripper and Shear Hogs? I'm new to the BT30 world and am getting paranoid about gage length, want to go with the shortest/stiffest possible tool holder.

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    Curious as well, I haven’t found a good 1” holder. I have two that I use for some special tools I make.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    I am not aware of anyone ever saying definitively what the drawbar tension is ..
    Must have dreamt it! I guess I need a vacation

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    We used Parlec brand 1" holders in BT30 from MSC at the old day job with no problems.

    After running high feed mills for a while I fell in love with them for steel in the Speedios. I still used face mills but not for big DOCs; mostly for parts I could hit in one pass and such, and for finishing passes (0.015" DOC or so).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    We used Parlec brand 1" holders in BT30 from MSC at the old day job with no problems.
    I have one of those, that I needed for a special something-or-another cutter, but boy oh boy, talk about a disaster waiting to happen ... unless the cutter shank is very short, you are guaranteed to have a long gage length since a 1" shank cannot extend into the toolholder taper area. Also the toolholder has distressingly little metal left where the 1" bore stops and the taper starts. No way would I run any significant MRR with this toolholder, in any 30-taper machine.

    Regards.

    Mike


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