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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    Hmmm, really?
    I use a sheet-ton of Accupro CAT40 holders. Last I knew, they were made by Pioneer.
    Every single one I have checked has been well within spec. And, the quality of fit/finish is very good.
    I also have a couple Pioneer ER32 holders I snagged cheap off ebay. They look/measure identical to all my Accupro holders.

    Maybe you got a bad apple? It happens.

    I absolutely love Frank's stuff as well.
    But, I have at least one side-lock holder of his, with a tight bore that I can't even get a tool in.
    Why dont you send it back to us. Contact me and I will send you a UPS label. Or are you trying to put in a double ended tool that has a coating.

    We grind our endmill holders tight. Specifically for carbide tooling where the blanks are always .00005-.0002 undersized. If you have a tool that is spot on .50000 or a micron over ( which sometimes happens from the coating of a double ended tool) it will be a very very tight fit or not even go in. I think it is a fair trade off.

    Sure I can grind them all to .50001 id, but 95% of the time it will hurt your concentricity.

  2. #42
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    wheelieking71, meant to ask you last night, if that is a 3/4 holder, measure the bore for me best you can.

    I just got a 3/4" high feed mill that mics .748-.7485.

    So it rattles in all 3 3/4" holders I have.

  3. #43
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    I got my S500 in January this year. Yamazen offered a tooling package, but it wasn't the combination of tool holders I needed, and I didn't see an option to "Mix and Match" different type of holders. I purchased all my tool holder/pulls studs from Maritool. Got a combination of stubby length set screw holders, face mill arbor, and ER-20 and ER-16 holders. I torqued pull studs to the Maritool spec. My cutting parameter so far. I inspected all my tool holders, and they basically look new.

    How I've "pushed" my speedio. Understand I'm doing fast turn around parts (no production) and am constantly changing tools/setups, so Tool life maybe great or horrible, Just haven't done enough of one part to say. Other than the ripper face mill which I use a lot, but have never touched the inserts yet.
    All toolpaths generated by InventorHSM.


    6061 T6
    Maritool 1/2" 3 flute ZRN serrated rougher in stubby holder. 10000 RPM .5 deep, .125 step over 300 ipm.

    2" ripper mill in Maritool arbor. 10000 RPM .2" deeep, 120 ipm

    YG-1 Alupower 3/4" 3" LOC set screw holder. 10000 rpm .7 deep .07 stepover 200 ipm


    303SS
    3/8" 5 flute yg-1 titanox 7500 rpm, .5" deep,.0188" stepover 300 ipm.

    robbjack 2" x .156 thick carbide saw in Maritol saw arbor. 955 rpm, .1" stepover 15 ipm

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    wheelieking71, meant to ask you last night, if that is a 3/4 holder, measure the bore for me best you can.

    I just got a 3/4" high feed mill that mics .748-.7485.

    So it rattles in all 3 3/4" holders I have.
    Nope, 3/8"

    Quote Originally Posted by fmari --MariTool- View Post
    Why dont you send it back to us. Contact me and I will send you a UPS label. Or are you trying to put in a double ended tool that has a coating.

    We grind our endmill holders tight. Specifically for carbide tooling where the blanks are always .00005-.0002 undersized. If you have a tool that is spot on .50000 or a micron over ( which sometimes happens from the coating of a double ended tool) it will be a very very tight fit or not even go in. I think it is a fair trade off.

    Sure I can grind them all to .50001 id, but 95% of the time it will hurt your concentricity.
    I never complained because a Watler-Titex 3/8" x 90' HSS spot-drill fit (albeit very tight). So, it lives in there permanently.
    I must have tried 50 solid carbide shanks in there though. And, never got one in it. The other one I bought at the same time is perfect.
    I agree with you 100% on the trade off. I would rather have to hold my tongue just right to get a tool in a holder. Than deal with any runout.

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  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by LOTT View Post
    Dumb question here- how are you all holding these 1" shank Ripper and Shear Hogs? I'm new to the BT30 world and am getting paranoid about gage length, want to go with the shortest/stiffest possible tool holder.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Curious as well, I haven’t found a good 1” holder. I have two that I use for some special tools I make.
    I use a Parlec 1" side-lock on a 1" shank custom form tool.

    img_1046.jpg

    img_1045.jpg

    No way around that tool. It cuts a critical prominent feature in the part. And, I had already had the tools custom made, and they work perfect.
    So, I had to have a way to hold a 1" shank. That Parlec was pretty much the only option I could find at the time. Quality is very good.
    I bought it through MSC. But, they don't list it any more. maybe check with Parlec direct? I am sure there is another option somewhere though.
    Yamazen has a tooling division now. I have been dealing with Clarence here in the Phoenix area. And, he is great.
    He found me a very odd face mill holder when I couldn't find anything.

  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    I am not aware of anyone ever saying definitively what the drawbar tension is but from what hints I have picked up over the years the standard spindle is 600-700ish and dual contact is more. I am pretty sure they are well above 400lbs. My Enshu was 400lbs and is now 500lbs after the last rebuild. If Speedios were in that range you would be hearing a lot more about fretting and pulled tool holders.
    Big plus is around 700-800ish. Standard is 400lbs. I asked Brother these numbers and they said "around there". Only one way to find out.

    I looked at those MA Ford 134 and they stop at .875" loc on 3/8". 1/2 starts at 1.25". I need a 3/8" x 1" loc.

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    How bad would you call this fretting? You can see there are kinda facets to it. Advice appreciated

    1.jpg
    2.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigtoy302 View Post
    Big plus is around 700-800ish. Standard is 400lbs. I asked Brother these numbers and they said "around there". Only one way to find out.

    I looked at those MA Ford 134 and they stop at .875" loc on 3/8". 1/2 starts at 1.25". I need a 3/8" x 1" loc.

    Disclaimer, I have not used this endmill in aluminum... But it is my favorite knuckle rougher for steel.

    Helical Tool

  10. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmosK View Post
    How bad would you call this fretting? You can see there are kinda facets to it. Advice appreciated

    1.jpg
    2.jpg
    Better than mine but your already on your way to eating the spindle. The facets are usually from bad grinding. What is your pull stud torque?

    I did a test yesterday and found the holder ran out .0003-.0004 more if the stud was over torqued. Some of these problems may be from too much pull stud torque. I don't have a socket but mine are not very tight. I just snug them one hand. Spec is 15 ftlbs dry no loctite. I don't think its a issue until you push hard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigtoy302 View Post
    Big plus is around 700-800ish. Standard is 400lbs. I asked Brother these numbers and they said "around there". Only one way to find out.

    I looked at those MA Ford 134 and they stop at .875" loc on 3/8". 1/2 starts at 1.25". I need a 3/8" x 1" loc.
    400lbs is pathetic, I thought for sure it would be higher. My Kitamura is 900lbs and it is a night and day difference from 500lbs. Garr has .875" and 1.25" loc 3/8" roughers. Their "teeth" are not deep so I really think their 1.25" mill would be pretty robust, as in you could push it HARD. If you are going for maximum tool potential then get the TiB2 coating. It will only take a few days for them to coat and is well worth it if you are pushing the tool to its limit. I estimate, through use, that it safely adds another 20% to the tools MMR potential with greater longevity, based on production slotting with a 3/16" mill.

    There is no perfect tool for all jobs. The HTC corncob mills are not as free cutting as Garr or MA Ford, but I have one part that it is the best tool for. I cut sections out of the part and the other roughers will grab the piece being cut out and break the cutter, the HTC ones don't. In fact, I have not broken one on that job yet. For 1/2" corncobs, I have both an aluminum version and cobalt steel versions I use, for the 3/4" corncob I only have cobalt for steel mills. As long as you keep the coolant on they work just fine, even buried in a slot. The one TMP links to looks like a good one to try, especially with the light radial cuts everyone is taking. Keep an open mind. Corncob mills are not like finish mills, don't use them the same! Bury them and run them HARD with much higher chip loads. Get it running like you want then play with lowering the spindle speed, kind of like cutting plastic. They don't lift the part like a finish mill and the chips are several times denser.

    Wheelie, what is the neck diameter of that tool? Perhaps the next time you get them made you could get them with 5/8" shanks for one of Franks stubby sidelocks.

    I use light torque and blue Loctite on my pull studs. The main reason for the Loctite is to keep the coolant from getting where it shouldn't. I have killed 2 spindles by getting coolant past the pull studs into the spindles then into the bearings. Greasy rings in the enclosure were a clear sign of what happened.

    CosmosK, that doesn't look like fretting to me at all. It looks more like contamination. Interesting about the facets, here are what some of the tool holders on my Enshu look like.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails tapers.jpg  

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  14. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    I use a Parlec 1" side-lock on a 1" shank custom form tool.





    No way around that tool. It cuts a critical prominent feature in the part. And, I had already had the tools custom made, and they work perfect.
    So, I had to have a way to hold a 1" shank. That Parlec was pretty much the only option I could find at the time. Quality is very good.
    I bought it through MSC. But, they don't list it any more. maybe check with Parlec direct? I am sure there is another option somewhere though.
    Yamazen has a tooling division now. I have been dealing with Clarence here in the Phoenix area. And, he is great.
    He found me a very odd face mill holder when I couldn't find anything.
    Might be a regional thing?

    https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tnp...IaApGEEALw_wcB

    This "says" it is 1" BT30, but it sure don't look like one!

    PARLEC End Mill Holder, BT30 Taper Size, 1.0000" Bore Dia., 2.75" Projection, 2.380" Nose Dia. - 2WUG8'|'B30-10EM275 - Grainger

    I see they are both Parlec but didn't look at part number to see if they were the same...

    edit: same part number so I guess Grainger just has the wrong picture. And Grainger is cheaper!!

    edit2: both of them are out of stock apparently...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    Wheelie, what is the neck diameter of that tool? Perhaps the next time you get them made you could get them with 5/8" shanks for one of Franks stubby sidelocks.
    The problem is they are solid carbide. And 1" diameter. So they have to start with a 1" blank.
    Too expensive to grind the shank down to a smaller diameter. These are well over $300ea already.
    I wouldn't even want to know what they would cost with a smaller shank. And, I wouldn't trust a brazed tool with a neck that small.
    Neck cant grow unless major tool diameter grows. And, I don't want that. So, it kinda is what it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigtoy302 View Post
    Better than mine but your already on your way to eating the spindle.
    Probably! I switched to the sidelocks right after I killed spindle #1, so I can argue the damage predates my current spindle. I think I will retire them. I doubt this spindle will be my last.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bigtoy302 View Post
    What is your pull stud torque?
    I torques them all to 12. Previously I had them about double that. Loctite, just a drop. There is an older thread started by gkoenig on the subject which I based my new method on.


    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    CosmosK, that doesn't look like fretting to me at all. It looks more like contamination. Interesting about the facets, here are what some of the tool holders on my Enshu look like.
    Not sure what the contamination would be. These are the only two that have the facets and I had my two roughers in them, short and long 3/8.

    Thanks

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    Bigtoy, I just saw this tool maker in another thread, 3/8" x 1" loc corncob rougher available with Zrn coating. The website looks a little messed up so I would call to confirm the price, which seems to be the same for the 1/4" x .75" mill.

    The tool holders I use the hardest have the most faceting polished onto the tapers. I have some holders that the faceting is several times more pronounced than the ones in the photo, but were in use when I took the photo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    400lbs is pathetic, I thought for sure it would be higher.
    It is about the same as a Robodrill standard BT spindle.

    Fanuc is building 20k Robodrills a year. Brother is building 14k Speedios. The vast majority in production are standard BT30, running tools sucked into the spindle with 400-500lb of force...

    It wouldn't cost Brother or Fanuc a penny more to up the drawbar force on these machines, so the question is: why? They both have 20+ years of data on BT30 spindles, in the largest fleet of mills in the world. Neither company is exactly brashly making engineering decisions without a *lot* of thought behind every detail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    It is about the same as a Robodrill standard BT spindle.

    Fanuc is building 20k Robodrills a year. Brother is building 14k Speedios. The vast majority in production are standard BT30, running tools sucked into the spindle with 400-500lb of force...

    It wouldn't cost Brother or Fanuc a penny more to up the drawbar force on these machines, so the question is: why? They both have 20+ years of data on BT30 spindles, in the largest fleet of mills in the world. Neither company is exactly brashly making engineering decisions without a *lot* of thought behind every detail.
    Just my opinion but the difference between 500 and 900 lbs drawbar force in how well the spindle cuts when pushed a little is pretty significant. If the machine is in a shop with 100 others just like it then the 400lb drawbar is understood, if it's in a garage or job shop alone then 400lbs is pathetic and prone to cause pulled tool holders and broken studs from smaller mistakes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    Just my opinion but the difference between 500 and 900 lbs drawbar force in how well the spindle cuts when pushed a little is pretty significant. If the machine is in a shop with 100 others just like it then the 400lb drawbar is understood, if it's in a garage or job shop alone then 400lbs is pathetic and prone to cause pulled tool holders and broken studs from smaller mistakes.
    Sure, I agree.

    But you've got two companies who turn over billions of dollars worth of BT30 machines every year, the implication being that they would have a *very* well researched reason for setting the standard drawbar at 400lb. There must be some sort of downside to setting it 500, 600, etc. The question is- what is that reason?

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    They're drill tap centers, with the capacity to finish pre-cast parts with light facing, etc... 400 lbs is more than enough for those tasks.

    Speedios become very popular, but they aren't job shop machines, in my opinion. It's just a dedicated machine for a dedicated product.

    I don't know how is the pull stud of another 30 tapers, but for sure I won't feel very comfortable with 900 lbs of force pulling from the stem of a Brother pull stud.

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    Exactly what the previous two posts say, these are not job shop machines. They are what they are and don't use them like something else.

    I need to get to work, an hour left.

    Ps, the pull studs are not the problem.

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    Nahhhh......

    They are great job shop machines. You just have to be realistic with them.

    I’ve never been a push it till it breaks kinda guy. I get the gist that many of you are. I get no satisfaction in finding the failure point in something.

    I’ve been in shops where their machines sound like shredders at a scrap yard, I’ve been in shops where if your spindle load isn’t 90% your a pussy. I’ve never gotten that.

    My Speedio has been fantastic as a job shop machine. Is it perfect, no. Is it everything I want? No. Does it cut 65Rc CPM-M4 as well as a Hermle? Nope. Will it hog D2 like a 40 taper Dual Contact 17k lb Mazak? Nope. But damn is it quick to setup on those 1-100 pc jobs. And if I do have a job that is more than one piece, WOW.

    Yamazen is very humble about their accuracies as well. Finished a gauge tonight that when I milled it the top was flat less than .0002”, the sides were perpendicular about .0001”, and it was round, 7” diameter, a little over .0001”.

    Some of the cuts folks are doing here are fantastic. I would never do them. The payoff to get a handful of widgets out seconds faster doesn’t seem to justify potential cost. But that’s probably why I don’t make widgets.

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