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  1. #61
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    If you don't break a tool now and then how do you know how fast you should go? My run sizes are 500-3000 and are nearly all repeat work so I continually optimize.

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Sure, I agree.

    But you've got two companies who turn over billions of dollars worth of BT30 machines every year, the implication being that they would have a *very* well researched reason for setting the standard drawbar at 400lb. There must be some sort of downside to setting it 500, 600, etc. The question is- what is that reason?
    Standard Brother drawbar is more like 600 lbs. BBT higher. They may have been 400 twenty years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROTHERFRANK View Post
    Standard Brother drawbar is more like 600 lbs. BBT higher. They may have been 400 twenty years ago.
    400 standard/800 BBT are the numbers that have been going around since forever. As long as Brother continues treating this number like some kind of a state secret, wild speculation will take place. Brother buys benchmark Robodrills and tests the hell out of them, they think Fanuc is too incompetent to do the same, and throw on a drawbar force gauge?

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    I don't think is a kind of 'state secret'. The rest of MTBs don't publish this data either.

    I was more concerned about drawbar force with the Haas. With the Haas, I had greeting or rubbing marks as shown above. I think Brother has a spindle with better quality, and the connection of tool holder and spindle hasn't been an issue for me so far.

    Drawbar force value of the Brother doesn't have too much interest for me now.

  7. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    If you don't break a tool now and then how do you know how fast you should go? My run sizes are 500-3000 and are nearly all repeat work so I continually optimize.
    Absolutely, known workholding, proven program, that’s one huge benefit of doing production.

    However I’ve yet needed to break something to figure out how fast I can go.

    Of course, I don’t know anything about production, it’s a totally different world. A little different when your holding onto an $800 piece of A11 with your fingernails.

    And then you go to a block of 4140 that needs mass removal.

    To a delicate stainless part.

    To a Ti part.

    To some blocks of A2 that are .0002” all around.

    And that was one day. . .

    I’d need thousands of programmed speeds and feeds to keep up with all the variances in workholding.

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  9. #66
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    Here is what the drawbar and pull stud can handle in steel:

    YouTube

    My heart still skips when that indexable corn cob rougher (laughing end mill ) and the slot cutter come out. This must be close to the limits. I personally prefer sharp, solid carbide cutters with HSM tool paths.

    A few of my rules of thumb: keep milling cutters short, use lower helix cutters for roughing, go with 1/2" and under end mills when possible, hold your parts well, make sure milling cutters can't pull out of tool holders, check and double check your programs/offsets, slow Rapids down when making edits and new setups, maintain coolant and make sure it is getting in and getting chips out, be more conservative when doing deeper pockets or slots, compensate feed rates on inside arcs, enjoy the extra productivity you will have every day... Brother owners/users, feel free to add to this list.

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  11. #67
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    Default Pushing your Speedio

    Are the lower tool-retention forces required to facilitate the sub-one second tool changes?

    I’ve always machined on the “conservative” side, and would rather give up a few tenths of a second tool-change time for stronger tool retention....if that’s the case.

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  13. #68
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    Those are fantastic! Hopefully someday I have my machine optimized that well!

    What is a F600x1?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    I've heard you say that before... so I tried getting a decent wall finish out of the Diamondback, and it was a total no-go. How anyone could use that as a "finished" surface is totally beyond me.

    While I might agree it isn't a rougher in the classic sense, only a fucking butcher would call a final wall it has machined "finished."

    Fraisa has a new aluminum rougher they have developed. 30 degree helix, fully serated, coolant hole down the middle, extra strong core. They seem to have figured out a way to get the sheer action of a high helix mill (like the Diamondback) without the vertical pulling force that makes high helix stuff a bit risky to run.

    I have a set on order, I'll see what the pricing is when they arrive.
    Hey Greg. Those Fraisa cutters look very interesting. Can you post something about them after you've tried them out and lived with them a bit? Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROTHERFRANK View Post
    Hey Greg. Those Fraisa cutters look very interesting. Can you post something about them after you've tried them out and lived with them a bit? Thanks
    We are using them in Ohio with incredible success. Greg is going to do some testing. Scott Rohde is a big fan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Those are fantastic! Hopefully someday I have my machine optimized that well!

    What is a F600x1?
    F600X1 is a fairly new release from Brother. Sounds like you are doing some excellent work with your S1000, one of my favorites.

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  19. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROTHERFRANK View Post
    Here is what the drawbar and pull stud can handle in steel:

    YouTube

    A few of my rules of thumb: keep milling cutters short, use lower helix cutters for roughing, go with 1/2" and under end mills when possible, hold your parts well, make sure milling cutters can't pull out of tool holders, check and double check your programs/offsets, slow Rapids down when making edits and new setups, maintain coolant and make sure it is getting in and getting chips out, be more conservative when doing deeper pockets or slots, compensate feed rates on inside arcs, enjoy the extra productivity you will have every day... Brother owners/users, feel free to add to this list.
    Yes. 1000%. I want to make sure this doesnt go unnoticed. Great info here.

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  21. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    We are using them in Ohio with incredible success. Greg is going to do some testing. Scott Rohde is a big fan.
    Since when are YOU in Ohio? Geez... within 1000 miles and you don't even call? As bad as my ex girlfriends

    Frasia are amazing... had their rep, Matt, stop out and show me some of their tooling. Have a job coming up soon I am hoping to run their tooling for a couple difficult cuts, and some cosmetic surfaces. Scott hooked me up with Matt.

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    I have been told by yamazens engineer Joe tsun it was not recommended to go above 1/2" endmill on the bt30

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    Quote Originally Posted by solidworkscadman View Post
    I have been told by yamazens engineer Joe tsun it was not recommended to go above 1/2" endmill on the bt30
    Thta's sort of my conclusion ish... 14mm Dia actually (for roughing).
    40mm Korloy facemill for 2.5mm DOC's and facing though

  24. #76
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    I have said this before, maybe, just maybe, the BBT drawbar could be an option for standard spindles for job shops/garage shops. Obviously everything about the machine can handle the extra drawbar force since it is already an option. Yes 600 lbs is good, but I know from experience 900 is far better, it makes the golden rule about projection less of an issue. Think of it as insurance when your process isn't quite as controlled as it would be in the high production setting these machines are specifically designed for.

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    -These machines have a lower drawbar pull force than people would like (comparing to a cat 40 I'm sure)
    -These machines can take a beating in Z, but not in X or Y
    -These machines apparently have spindle/ tool holder fretting issues when pushed aggressively
    -These machines have a BT30 Taper
    -These machines originally started their live as drill tap centers
    -They are marketed as compact high speed machining centers not compact high material removal rate machining centers.

    If you are looking for serious large chip load material rates,these are not the proper machines. Up size to a correct machine for the application. Aside from the drawbar think of how small the contact area really is on a spindle/holder interface compared to a Cat 40 or 50 taper. This is a lightweight machine design.

    I feel like this is like a truck forum with a bunch of dudes discussing why they have trouble with their half ton truck not towing 30,000 very well.

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    -These machines have a lower drawbar pull force than people would like (comparing to a cat 40 I'm sure)
    -These machines can take a beating in Z, but not in X or Y
    -These machines apparently have spindle/ tool holder fretting issues when pushed aggressively
    -These machines have a BT30 Taper
    -These machines originally started their live as drill tap centers
    -They are marketed as compact high speed machining centers not compact high material removal rate machining centers.

    If you are looking for serious high chip load/material rates,these are not the proper machines. Up size to a correct machine for the application. Aside from the drawbar think of how small the contact area really is on a spindle/holder interface compared to a Cat 40 or 50 taper.

    I feel like this is like a truck forum with a bunch of dudes discussing why they have trouble with their half ton truck not towing 30,000lbs very well.

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  28. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy1966 View Post
    I feel like this is like a truck forum with a bunch of dudes discussing why they have trouble with their half ton truck not towing 30,000 very well.
    I was going to make almost exactly that analogy.

    Problem was I couldn't figure out how to make the other side of the analogy.

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    My problem is my BT30 tools go in an 8000 lb box way drill/tap center which skews my expectations on how hard you can safely push a BT30 tool. All this talk about the limitations of BT30 isn't correct, those limitations lie elsewhere.

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