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Is it Really a 90 degree cutter as they claim???

behnod

Plastic
Joined
Jan 24, 2016
Dear dudes
I need your help with this issue .
Do 90 degree shoulder cut tools (like APKT holders ) really do 90 cut( parallel walls ) .
i have recently got a no named cutter that supposed to be 90 but there is a difference in the size of the top an bottom of the slot .
what i understand is that because of the axial rake angle there must be a reduction in the diameter that should have been taken into consideration in design .
my question is that is it true or not that it should be exactly 90 .
i was wondering if you could test your branded cutters under your tool presetter and share the result.
Please take a look at this pic
1288397231481-18539166543.jpg

Regards
 
My Nexus 3/4" 2 flute checks about .0015 smaller towards the shank, so yes, not quite parallel. What are you trying to do finish a wall with your insert cutter? Keep in mind, the .0015 is over the length of the insert, about .42" long, so not too bad IMO. Of course that would be unacceptable for an endmill...
 
You can't get nice polished wall surface with a insert mill, but they are 90 degrees. You can't get strait wall deep pocket done, if your tool is too long and feeds are too fast.
 
My Nexus 3/4" 2 flute checks about .0015 smaller towards the shank, so yes, not quite parallel. What are you trying to do finish a wall with your insert cutter? Keep in mind, the .0015 is over the length of the insert, about .42" long, so not too bad IMO. Of course that would be unacceptable for an endmill...
Thanks Mike . Mine in something about 0.15 smaller toward the shank . So you think exactly parallel is the best condition.right ?
 
Fellow Dude behnod, a couple things...

-First, the second picture shows what looks like a cutter with a damaged insert-pocket. When you are tightening the screw, there should be no rotating-movement of the insert. It should fit firmly against all of the bearing-surfaces of the tool. Has this tool been crashed? If so, throw it away and buy another one...

-Second, your indexable shoulder-milling tools should cut 90* walls. They most often will not produce perfect parallel vertical walls with multiple Z-passes. This is due to several reasons, but one big one is the fact that you're using a "universal" insert, that goes into many different diameter cutter bodies. Like you alluded to in your original post, since there is some helix-angle, it cannot always be a perfect match to the differing cutter body diameters. Because of this non-diameter-specific helix angle, there's going to be some mis-match between Z-passes on vertical walls.

-Third - You cannot cut a "slot" using a full-width cutter, and expect it to be centered-on-location, and with square walls. If other words, you cannot cut a perfect 1/2" slot, with a 1/2" endmill. During a slotting cut, the cutter deflects to the left (on a normal CW-rotation tool) because the teeth at thickest part of the cut (in the direction of travel) are under the greatest load. This means the teeth are under enough force as to deflect the entire tool. Remember - Every action is met by an equal and opposite reaction - and in cutting tools, this means deflection. Endmills both indexable & solid, are not immune to this...

And easy way to visualize this, is to take a slotting-cut in some material. Now, stop, and reverse - running the cutter through the exact same slot. The cutter will only be removing material from one of the vertical walls - that's because during the initial slotting cut, the cutter deflected to the left, and cut past where the slot's left-wall should have been. Likewise, since the cutter deflected to the left, it left material remaining on the slot's right-wall, which should have been cut... When you reverse directions and go back through the slot, the cutter removes the material from the right-wall which should have been cut during the initial slotting-cut, and doesn't even touch the left-wall. Thus, you're left with an over-width slot, with one pretty wall, and one ugly wall...

To get a slot to the correct width, with square walls, on location, you need to use a narrower-than-your-slot endmill. Make the initial slotting cut, then step over, and finish each wall separately. If it's something you really care about too, a spring-pass or two are usually in order as well...
 
The first cutter would cut a vertical side to a part laying horizontal in a vertical mill table only if the mill head was trammed perfect ( or just 90 from the spindle). The end as shown would cut a slight dish at a plunge in feed but with traveling across would make a flat bottom. To get a smooth side finish and true vertical side the inserts would have to be set near perfect in the pocket. *Some top brands are near perfect brand new but can get pocket wear and so not stay perfect. A hefty HSS end mill and even better is a hefty carbide end mill…. and for a flat bottom having the end center cutting with one end flute just past center .005 or so. I agree with a slot making cutter will cut wide .
Yes one could roll the cutter held in a V block under an indicator to see if sides are all the same height(diameter)and square (straight)and then put a shim behind to make better. and as Jashley said deflection is common so that adds to wide and cutting more to one side.
 
In my experience-

The better brand Indexables holders using the better brand Inserts will cut with less mismatch, be truer to 90deg and cut much closer to nominal size then the "No Named" brands.

I have also found No Named Brands not to cut as smooth, cannot take as much of a cut nor do they last as long as the Quality brands...even the No Named Brands that spiff up their tools with nice finishes are not quite up to par.

Goes back to "you get what you pay for".

Whatever the case...if you are looking for Endmill finished walls...use an endmill, cause if you notice I said even the Better indexable setups only give "Less" mismatch, "Truer to 90" and "Closer" to size.
 
Fellow Dude behnod, a couple things...

-First, the second picture shows what looks like a cutter with a damaged insert-pocket. When you are tightening the screw, there should be no rotating-movement of the insert. It should fit firmly against all of the bearing-surfaces of the tool. Has this tool been crashed? If so, throw it away and buy another one...

-Second, your indexable shoulder-milling tools should cut 90* walls. They most often will not produce perfect parallel vertical walls with multiple Z-passes. This is due to several reasons, but one big one is the fact that you're using a "universal" insert, that goes into many different diameter cutter bodies. Like you alluded to in your original post, since there is some helix-angle, it cannot always be a perfect match to the differing cutter body diameters. Because of this non-diameter-specific helix angle, there's going to be some mis-match between Z-passes on vertical walls.

-Third - You cannot cut a "slot" using a full-width cutter, and expect it to be centered-on-location, and with square walls. If other words, you cannot cut a perfect 1/2" slot, with a 1/2" endmill. During a slotting cut, the cutter deflects to the left (on a normal CW-rotation tool) because the teeth at thickest part of the cut (in the direction of travel) are under the greatest load. This means the teeth are under enough force as to deflect the entire tool. Remember - Every action is met by an equal and opposite reaction - and in cutting tools, this means deflection. Endmills both indexable & solid, are not immune to this...

And easy way to visualize this, is to take a slotting-cut in some material. Now, stop, and reverse - running the cutter through the exact same slot. The cutter will only be removing material from one of the vertical walls - that's because during the initial slotting cut, the cutter deflected to the left, and cut past where the slot's left-wall should have been. Likewise, since the cutter deflected to the left, it left material remaining on the slot's right-wall, which should have been cut... When you reverse directions and go back through the slot, the cutter removes the material from the right-wall which should have been cut during the initial slotting-cut, and doesn't even touch the left-wall. Thus, you're left with an over-width slot, with one pretty wall, and one ugly wall...

To get a slot to the correct width, with square walls, on location, you need to use a narrower-than-your-slot endmill. Make the initial slotting cut, then step over, and finish each wall separately. If it's something you really care about too, a spring-pass or two are usually in order as well...
Thank you very much jashley73 for your complete explanations . I have edited the pictures in Corel draw .
 
Dear dudes
I need your help with this issue .
Do 90 degree shoulder cut tools (like APKT holders ) really do 90 cut( parallel walls ) .
i have recently got a no named cutter that supposed to be 90 but there is a difference in the size of the top an bottom of the slot .
what i understand is that because of the axial rake angle there must be a reduction in the diameter that should have been taken into consideration in design .
my question is that is it true or not that it should be exactly 90 .
i was wondering if you could test your branded cutters under your tool presetter and share the result.
Please take a look at this pic
View attachment 161317

Regards
.
i do about 1000 tests on milling cutters a year using a parlec optical tool setter. normal to check insert lean that is over time insert pockets get damaged and inserts are often at a angle.
.
i have also seen 2nd row of inserts over .005" in diameter different than the end row of inserts. this can cause problems setting to smaller dia of inserts on the end when next row is bigger diameter.
.
inserts often are at different dia and length that is pocket damage from use or shattering stuck inserts. quite normal to see variations in radial and axial runout/wobble of over .005
.
the worst ones get sent out for repair but i have seen repaired ones come back with insert lean or differences in dia between insert rows. all repairs need checking
 
In order to produce a "perfect" 90 like a conventional endmill you would need a different APKT insert for every cutter dia. you sell.
It's a design tradeoff. Some sizes will be concave. others convex. One insert helix, differing diameters, no choice.
You can tweak it a bit by screwing with the axial rake which will sacrifice life on small depth of cuts.
Your 2-D picture will not show the real design problem.
Bob
 
Dude:

Did you really scam a pic off of my website and think I wouldn't notice? ;)
BTW, the APKT style cutters I sell are sourced from Korloy and Toolmex (Palbit).
Not Iscar, Sandvik, or Seco, but certainly not "no name".

APKT INSERT FOR ALUMINUM

APKT 1003 cutter.jpg
 
I have always considered my inserted tooling to be roughing only for pockets and profiles .....unless I have a wide open tolerance etc. (tractor machinist work). Sort of the 10lb maul of the cutter drawer.lol
 
No offense but I guess that I just get confused as to why people post this type of question rather than contacting the tooling rep/vendor.
 








 
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