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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglemike View Post
    It's my understanding the 16K spindle has the lowest torque. (I also have a couple of 10K, hi-torque, dual contact machines.) The 10k machines also have steel bearings, IIRC the faster spindles have ceramic bearings, and may to take a hard smack as well.
    Good luck!
    The 16k and 27k machines are ceramic, but you'll lose the taper well before the bearings.

    XY crashes on these machines are spindle-killers. They are tough as hell in Z though. A few weeks ago, an operator was setting up a production job that starts out with a 2.5" long, .625 Destiny Diamondback. This is a big ass tool to be running in any 30 taper machine, but it works perfectly for this application. He forgot to set the offset, but was still confident to hit cycle start in full rapids.

    The tool plunged at full rapid into a PHD pneumatic gripper and bored about .375" into the hardened steel top plate. Tool mostly shattered, but the remaining shank was wedged into the gubbins of the gripper. I was 10' away when it happened and it sounded like a shotgun. This was in a Big Kaiser side lock, and I had to take the side door off and release the set screw to get the spindle back up, leaving the remainings of the tool wedged in the pneumatic gubbins. Aside from a $2000 gripper and another $1000 in custom tooling on it, the machine didn't skip a beat. We did have to reset the encoder though. Spare tooling was brought out, and we had it back in production within an hour.

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  3. #22
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    Maybe you're looking at the same machine spec I got; S500, 10k spindle, 14-tool magazine, added washdown hose and toolsetter. 50L coolant tank.

    Now that I've run mine for 8 months, my must-haves are:
    - Toolsetter. Buy it.
    - Bigger coolant tank, either buying up front or schmoozing another customer that gets a conveyor upgrade. I'd just get one tossed in early or make my own.
    - Spindle probe is a YES if you KNOW you will use it. Probe is a NO if you don't think you'll need it. That's more money and a tool pocket.

    That's it for must-haves. I would not buy the washdown hose again. $600 for a nice garden hose nozzle and tubing that is too small. I would spend $50 and set my own up with full 3/4" tubing all the way from the coolant Tee to get more flow. I set up my own air hose inside the machine and that has worked great. I kept my machine even more budget by specifically NOT buying the top cover or lights. I installed the machine with an open top underneath an overhead light and that has worked great. I don't get anything coming out of the machine to need the top cover. Top cover is mandatory if you use TSC though. I did not buy a spindle probe and have not once ever regretted that decision. I use a Tschorn 3D Taster to set my dimensions. All of my parts are made using either raw stock in piranha jaws against a stop, soft jaws, or pallets. One quick XYZ dimension set and I'm done. If you want to do in-process checks or use odd size stock or add safety routines or something special, then a probe would make sense and they pay for themselves quickly in many applications.

    I would enjoy the budget 10k machine for what it is, and not try to turn it into a balls to the wall production machine. If you want full panty-dropping Speedio, get a 16 or 27k spindle and the whole shebang. Not budget. Note at the end about what the 10k machine will do for you.

    The 14 tools works fine for me. I do almost exclusively my own in-house parts with just a few outside jobs. It can be EASY to need more than 14 tools depending on what you're making. If you need multiple drills and taps, and end mills, chamfer mills, etc. it can add up, so make sure you can run enough tools to at least do one complete op on your parts.

    The Speedios don't use augers like other machines do. The Haas mills have augers inside the machine, the Speedios use a conveyor as part of the coolant tank on the back of the machine. The chip evacuation is excellent on these machines just from the enormous amount of coolant they use. The only downside I've run into is that if you aren't running coolant (like running a lot of steel dry) you can get chip buildup because there's nothing moving chips out.

    Get the biggest coolant tank you can get your hands on. I have the 50 liter. I have to keep it above-topped-off to keep the pump from starving, because it pumps so much that I'll have 6 gallons of coolant inside the machine trying to drain out. Add that the chips pile up by the chutes and that slows coolant down a little.

    The 10K spindle has been great. I sometimes wish I had the 16k when I'm doing engraving or chamfering, or some aluminum milling, but the 10k still rocks and I run mostly steel parts.

    The size of the 500 is nice. The side panels being removable is really nice. I drill/mill tubing pieces that are longer than the machine by removing these doors. A 700 is more all-round useable with extra width but isn't required unless your parts need it.

    The control is very user friendly, I love it. The High Accuracy codes are very easy to implement in-program and make a serious, visible difference. The feed/rapid override knobs these come with should be on every machine out there.


    So that you know how I run my 10k machine. Fastest cut I do spec'd below. I could push it faster but I think the end mill will snap.

    6061 T6 aluminum
    3/8" 1"loc 3-flute chipbreaking end mill in sidelock holder. 10K RPM, 1" depth of cut, .08" stepover, 400ipm

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DethloffMfg View Post
    I kept my machine even more budget by specifically NOT buying the top cover or lights. I installed the machine with an open top underneath an overhead light and that has worked great. I don't get anything coming out of the machine to need the top cover.
    Maybe OK with a 10k spindle, but I can assure you, my 16k spindle sends bits EVERYWHERE. Also, the mist . Not much point running a mist collector without the top cover.

    Regards.

    Mike

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  7. #24
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    Just for the record, I find the 435 psi coolant pressure works fine even with 2.0 - 3.5 mm TSC carbide drills. My tool life went from changing a drill every 16-24 hours to changing a drill every 5 WEEKS when I changed to TSC (Same machine, same parts, Same drill grind, just add the TSC option to the drill.) I effectively went from buying drills to the drills paying me to run them (in a sense).

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  9. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finegrain View Post
    Maybe OK with a 10k spindle, but I can assure you, my 16k spindle sends bits EVERYWHERE. Also, the mist . Not much point running a mist collector without the top cover.

    Regards.

    Mike
    Top cover is definitely needed for a mist collector, and a mist collector and lights are needed if you have a top cover.

  10. #26
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    For the record I just parted ways with the shop I've been working days and am back in my shop and got quotes on those 500s... there are six left as of yesterday I think.

    I was told that the Blum probing (spindle and Z-nano) is around $10k or so as an option - that is a significant increase over the base price of the machine right now but I used spindle probing all the time, and a lot in-process for higher precision work. The CAD/CAM system I'm using posts out everything for the Blums.

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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    For the record I just parted ways with the shop I've been working days and am back in my shop and got quotes on those 500s... there are six left as of yesterday I think.

    I was told that the Blum probing (spindle and Z-nano) is around $10k or so as an option - that is a significant increase over the base price of the machine right now but I used spindle probing all the time, and a lot in-process for higher precision work. The CAD/CAM system I'm using posts out everything for the Blums.
    Oh no! No more MX520 or 326-II!?!?!?!? Hope it works out for you, bro!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    I was told that the Blum probing (spindle and Z-nano) is around $10k or so as an option - that is a significant increase over the base price of the machine right now but I used spindle probing all the time, and a lot in-process for higher precision work. The CAD/CAM system I'm using posts out everything for the Blums.
    Oofa, $10k is pretty spendy. I assume about $2500 of that is the Z Nano, and the remainder is the Blum spindle probe.

    Honestly, I would go Renishaw all around. I'm about to fit a TR27 to my machine, and I have a Renishaw spindle probe. I'll continue to drive them with the Yamazen macros (I find the Renishaw macros annoying, and they all do an unnecessary double touch). The nicest thing about Renishaw? If you ever have a problem or crash the probe body, Renishaw has a reasonably priced replacement program and/or you can go on eBay and snag a new-in-box probe body for a little over $1k. Blum has a reputation for charging full-tilt on replacements, and they are rare enough that you will *never* find NIB inventory being sold at a discount (I don't even think I've ever seen a used Blum for sale). Renishaw owns this game, the parts are readily available.

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    My preference is Renishaw OMP40 spindle probe and hardwired Blum Znano tool setter/detection. I am not crazy about how the TS27 tilts to trigger. The Znano is a straight down plunge. Very consistent. We hit those at 150 IPM even with relatively small cutters. Below around .015" we can slow it down. No radius checking but few ever seem to mind.
    We have also made custom brackets for the znano to move it out of the way and to the edge of the travel.
    20170104_090449_1505405818575_resized.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdlinger View Post
    Oh no! No more MX520 or 326-II!?!?!?!? Hope it works out for you, bro!
    Yeah I'm going to miss all those axis for sure! I was brought on board to help re-establish the place and I am proud of what I accomplished there, but we had some underlying philosophical differences that became irreconcilable. We're maintaining a close working relationship moving forward. I may end up having to go back to a laboratory or something in pharma short-term, but I'll know in the next few months.

    I like the Blums because of how they work with the laser inside so they don't need to double touch for accuracy (that's how it was explained to me at least). The Z-nano is really nice and wasn't having the sticking issues that our Metrols were. How big is an OMP40? The Blums spindle probes are tiny and very easy to get in to probe features with a not-too-long stylus. The only frame of reference I have is the gigantic OMP60 Renishaw I've used in 40 taper machines.

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    Per the lights: the top is designed, as I was told, to fit a florescent fixture. I also made my own top cover from coroplast to help seal things up. My shop would fill with mist before I had any mist collecting and that's just a 10k and no TSC.

    s2140001.jpg

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  19. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    I like the Blums because of how they work with the laser inside so they don't need to double touch for accuracy (that's how it was explained to me at least). The Z-nano is really nice and wasn't having the sticking issues that our Metrols were. How big is an OMP40? The Blums spindle probes are tiny and very easy to get in to probe features with a not-too-long stylus. The only frame of reference I have is the gigantic OMP60 Renishaw I've used in 40 taper machines.
    The Blum triggers by a light source and a photo sensor through a window in a shaft attached to the stylus. no laser. It works well, but so do the Renishaws with a lot of upside to the Renishaws as mentioned earlier. The Renishaws do not require a double touch. That is just whoever's macros you use. The probes are just precision wireless switches that the machine can grab and accurately touch and find surfaces repeatably with. The functions are macro and/or machine interface driven. The OMP40 is as compact if not more compact than the Blum TC52. Another upside is replacement styli cost. Last time I checked I believe the Renishaws were lower cost at QMark. Styli That Work With All Probe Systems - Q-Mark Probe Styli
    no affiliation, just passing along a good thing

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    Every time I see Blum (A company that I have made a vow to never deal with again) I like to point out their Z nano repair program, if say it gets coolant in it, is to sell you a new one. I think they offered a 10% discount. This was because a pc board the size of a quarter needed to be replaced. Crappy company to deal with!

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    I used to swear by Blum contact tool setters but we just put a Renishaw Primo LTS on one of my mills and it works perfect for a quite a bit less money--> Primo™ LTS

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    Quote Originally Posted by TKassoc View Post
    I used to swear by Blum contact tool setters but we just put a Renishaw Primo LTS on one of my mills and it works perfect for a quite a bit less money--> Primo™ LTS
    Those look nice. I am going to look into them further. Thanks for posting! Are you running any of the other Primo products? What's with the Tokens?

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    I've not had experience with Blum's repair/exchange policy, but can swear by Renishaw's. Had a MP10 probe that an operator rapided into a fixture. It was ~20% shorter than supposed to be and bent about 15 degrees. Sent it in on the exchange program and they sent a perfect unit back at a hugely reduced price off list. I fully expected them to decline the exchange program and tell me to buy new at full price.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROTHERFRANK View Post
    Those look nice. I am going to look into them further. Thanks for posting! Are you running any of the other Primo products? What's with the Tokens?
    Not running anything else from the Primo line but I have two mill-turns that use TS27s I don't like much...

    I have never even looked at the Token deal before. Looks like they have successfully created both a subscription model and stupid operator insurance for their products. I don't need it but it might work for some shops.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROTHERFRANK View Post
    My preference is Renishaw OMP40 spindle probe and hardwired Blum Znano tool setter/detection. I am not crazy about how the TS27 tilts to trigger. The Znano is a straight down plunge. Very consistent.
    It is one of those theoretical advantages that I think doesn't pan out to being meaningful real-world. On the TS27/OTS, the base is adjustable so you can dial it in dead-nuts flat. On a Metrol or Blum, you get the total error of whatever combination of surfaces the thing is mounted to, and you're in shim stock world to get it straight. At a certain Portland outfit with many Speedios, we've been having problems with errors in length measurements with different diameter end mills and dramatic differences with pointy tip tools (+/- 0.001"). Turns out, the somewhat exotic Metrol mounts aren't exactly flat, so a .625 end mill is making contact and triggering the switch before the 0.093" ball does. Both the Metrol and Blum could really use adjustable bases.

    Having said all that, people who really need to split a gnat's ass are all using lasers...

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    Definitely skip the wash down option. It’s an anemic self retracting hose and literally the cheapest garden hose sprayer I’ve ever seen in my life. There’s a 3/4x3/4x1/2 T off the coolant line to the fitting on the cabinet for the right side coolant input. We swapped those out for 3/4 T and ran the wash down line off there and kept it out of the cabinet. Got gross fast inside the machine the way they ran it.

    I have royal mist collectors on my Speedios. Works great and we run 25K rpm 15-20 hours a day. I just covered the top on the mist collector side and left the other side open. Has worked well. Before we could see the mist pouring out the top. We have great ventilation but still covered the whole shop in a slime layer in just a few weeks.

    Great machines. We hit 40-50 hour cycle times on 3 of them when we are slammed and never had a single issue other than one of my guys breaking a plastic tool spot cover while yanking a stick part out. Expected that to cost $40... it was $6. Not too shabby.

    Our service (Yorba Linda Ca) is next level. They are fast, and have gone so far out of their way to help me out even on non $ parts from other customers of theirs they found for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    It is one of those theoretical advantages that I think doesn't pan out to being meaningful real-world. On the TS27/OTS, the base is adjustable so you can dial it in dead-nuts flat. On a Metrol or Blum, you get the total error of whatever combination of surfaces the thing is mounted to, and you're in shim stock world to get it straight. At a certain Portland outfit with many Speedios, we've been having problems with errors in length measurements with different diameter end mills and dramatic differences with pointy tip tools (+/- 0.001"). Turns out, the somewhat exotic Metrol mounts aren't exactly flat, so a .625 end mill is making contact and triggering the switch before the 0.093" ball does. Both the Metrol and Blum could really use adjustable bases.

    Having said all that, people who really need to split a gnat's ass are all using lasers...
    Those bases could easily be kissed with a shell mill to make them dead nuts to the table. The laser has it's own issues.


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