Reliable small 5 axis mill recommendations
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  1. #1
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    Default Reliable small 5 axis mill recommendations

    Long time listener, first time caller.
    I am needing a small 5 axis mill to accompany my Erowa compact 80 robot.
    My Erowa pallets are 115mm diameter, so donít need much table space.
    I would like at least 20 degrees past 90 (ideally more) as to have three sided fixtures at 20-30 degree angle as to hit 5 sides of 3 parts without interference issues.

    I see a lot of 5 axis mills (like OKK) that have the knuckle of the trunnion in the way of the robot arm.

    Looked at Mazak and DMG Mori, with the 500ish mm pallet, but feel itís overkill on table space.
    -I prefer a Siemens control, as my lathe(s) is Siemens, and Iím getting really cozy with it.-just do a lot of oddball prototype stuff and like adjusting programs at the control with ease

    Currently entertaining the Methods 450u, as spec wise it looks real nice.
    -havenít heard anything about their own brand. -I know itís Taiwanese steel, but closely monitored to ensure quality.??

    Looking at getting a medium sized robodrill with the Tsudakoma 5x rotary
    óRobodrills sound amazing, but limited tools and a bolt on rotary and a little bit of a concern. -already use a bolt on 5 axis rotary, and would like more rigidity.

    I think the ideal machine is a Kern micro, (from what Iíve seen) but may be overkill and over budget
    -really like that it can be on the right side of the robot, as my other mill is on the left.

    -donít really need true 5 axis, just good indexing repeatedly and thermal stability.

    Would like to be under $300k

    Thoughts?

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    Have you considered the Brother Speedio M200X3? 22 Tools, 16k rpm, Big Plus BT30, zero backlash on tilt and rotating axes, tilt travel is -30 to +120 degrees, turning function standard, very automation friendly.

    [brother]Machining example of an SPEEDIO "M140X2".(Aluminum casting) - YouTube

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    Someone might be fishing for a DMG Mori - (new) DMP 35 ? ~ Siemens control.

    World premiere: DMP 35

    "world premiere".

    [Not so many tools though]. [Does not immediately fall into the "reliable" category given how new it is.



    Hurcos seem to be compatible with a bunch of different Erowa tower / pallet systems ?

    - not particularly "Kern like" with Hurco hardware... DMP 35 would be more "Kern-like"-ish having (on ballance) higher rpm spindle speeds and scales/ + "nod" to thermal management and accessible knuckle table (small), but Kern (as we know is in a different class altogether for what's (at least) it's designed to do. Different layout too.).

    A special on a matsuura MX 330 might work - not sure about compatibility with an Erowa compact 80 robot- not Siemens.

    The Methods machine is built by Litz and normally is Fanuc control. (worth checking spindle curves( torque vs rpm ) as they may have beefed up the spindle on the mb450U .).

    The Methods Litz could be snapped up for around $200K as per Op's want/ask "Under $300K"

    The DMP 70 with 5 axis is / was astonishingly expensive - not sure how the DMP 35 will price out.


    HAAS kinda dropped the ball on the UMC 500 (sadly). Good concept yet seemingly intractable problems - unless something has been ironed out.
    Last edited by cameraman; 08-06-2021 at 09:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Someone might be fishing for a DMG Mori - (new) DMP 35 ? ~ Siemens control.

    World premiere: DMP 35

    "world premiere".

    [Not so many tools though]. [Does not immediately fall into the "reliable" category given how new it is.



    Hurcos seem to be compatible with a bunch of different Erowa tower / pallet systems ?

    - not particularly "Kern like" with Hurco hardware... DMP 35 would be more "Kern-like"-ish having (on ballance) higher rpm spindle speeds and scales/ + "nod" to thermal management and accessible knuckle table (small), but Kern (as we know is in a different class altogether for what's (at least) it's designed to do. Different layout too.).

    A special on a matsuura MX 330 might work - not sure about compatibility with an Erowa compact 80 robot- not Siemens.

    The Methods machine is built by Litz and normally is Fanuc control. (worth checking spindle curves( torque vs rpm ) as they may have beefed up the spindle on the mb450U .).

    The Methods Litz could be snapped up for around $200K as per Op's want/ask "Under $300K"

    The DMP 70 with 5 axis is / was astonishingly expensive - not sure how the DMP 35 will price out.


    HAAS kinda dropped the ball on the UMC 500 (sadly). Good concept yet seemingly intractable problems - unless something has been ironed out.
    Errata / correction - seems the DMP 35 has an option for 25 tools up from the standard 15 tools - makes the machine slightly wider at 1,410 mm.

    The height of the machine is interesting ~ 90" installable / dissembled (7ft 6").

    15K rpm spindle and 24K rpm spindle option. claims to be a titanium capable machine even in or for impellers/ blisks - guessing target is more medical related. Sim 5 axis and other features as standard, so maybe the more standardized (more inclusive feature set) improves reliability , lowers complexity / Siemens related / DMG type historical problems and makes the platform more affordable ? [Well some one out there might hope that at least :-) ].


    ______________

    Kitamura medcenter is more pricey but seems to be in the ball park / applications of OP's description. except not siemens... and not under $300K (probably).

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    No clue on the price of these, but Hyundai-Wia makes a really good vmc and they're usually quite a bit cheaper than the big boy brands.
    Also their XF2000 5ax machine is setup like the GROB machines, pretty slick.

    https://machine.hyundai-wia.com/eu/p...ATE_CODE_S=B05

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    For six years I've been making Ti bone plates and 17-4 H900 surgical implements on a VF-3SS with a trunnion. It's done everything I've asked of it, dynamic roughs Ti with a 1/2" em at recommended parameters with five hours of tool life. 15K RPM, 1000PSI TSC, 41 tools, probing, for les than $200k. The TR-160Y I've been using does have a square front end that gets in the way, but they've since come out with new versions with compact, rounded bodies and no front end. They also have HSK spindle options on their VM series now, and you can get the auto-door option to work with your robot.

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    What size of parts?
    Unless you have a larger than normal (200mm normal) raiser, you'll run out of head room on a Robo real fast.
    And then if you take the rotary off, you'll never reach the table...

    For prototype, i'd be looking at 40tools min so at least you can have some type of standard/library tools left set.
    Siemens is great on the one I looked at - to index just type C90 and no bother of unclamp or reclamp Mcodes etc - it knew it had to do that to move... But that's prolly a MTB implementation and all maynot be like that.

    Ref the methods machine - That looks a real nice machine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    No clue on the price of these, but Hyundai-Wia makes a really good vmc and they're usually quite a bit cheaper than the big boy brands.
    Also their XF2000 5ax machine is setup like the GROB machines, pretty slick.

    https://machine.hyundai-wia.com/eu/p...ATE_CODE_S=B05

    I forgot about that machine ~ the XF2000 - 'Award winning",

    .
    hyundai-wia-xf2000-.jpg<-- click to enlarge. (structure and layout.).

    ^^^ Clever concept , I think it's a triangular wedge (like a slant lathe turned on end* - as a "monoblock' with stuff bolted on the outside right angle planes - very efficient for "Iron" ) but the Spindle goes up and down and to and fro and the knuckle goes in and out on one linear axis; whereas some of the 5 axis Grob Universals go to and fro and side to side with the spindle, and the knuckle table goes up and down, different geometry but both horizontals with an inverting knuckle table.

    Last time I looked Hyundai Wia are pretty spendy and highly prized esp. in S.Korea - some of their prices are comparable to Hermle or Mikron.

    @Mtndew thanks for the reminder of the XF2000 's existence. - vaguely remembered that this machine existed but forgot who actually built it.

    _____________________________________________


    * or maybe it's a big ole extruded square in footprint

    So an "integrated bed & column" - a bedolumn not bedlam - seems the casting (monoblock) are connected in ways to make a small force loop (that's not immediately obvious), in the horizontal plane.
    Last edited by cameraman; 08-06-2021 at 05:38 PM. Reason: numerous

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    Personally, I'd think I'd only ever buy one with a support for the trunnion.
    Rigidity and smackability (should that be oopsability)...

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    Personally, I'd think I'd only ever buy one with a support for the trunnion.
    Rigidity and smackability (should that be oopsability)...
    Yeah definitely ~ "crashability" is a real factor IMO,

    Does it crash well ?

    For bigger machines it's sometimes worth asking if there are inherent design features that make it easier to re-align a machine after a bad crash. Hermle(s) have that capability as an inherent design feature. I.e. critical "build" geometry across the trunnion can be re-aligned and set square with the rest of the machine + "Other" without having to go through massive "Rocket surgery".

    Some cantilevered smaller (knuckle style) machines are not too bad if high end crossed roller (ring) bearings are used and there are deeper assemblies through a casting to actually cantilever the assembly at a second attachment point(s)/beam / structure.

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    Kitamura has a small 5x machine made for the small part market, doubt it would be under the $300k but it might be close enough and certainly would have the lifetime of use kind of nailed. Not Siemens but if it gets you where you are going who cares who drives?

    Charles


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