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    Quote Originally Posted by dstryr View Post
    I remember another user here having similar issues on a different brand machine. Turned out to be a wiring issue ....
    I would almost bet money on that. Somehow purchasing messed up and ordered (2) VM-20's and both came plagued with problems. The techs came in and installed the probes and was an absolute disaster. The cable Hurco supplies with the probes is non shielded 6.3 MM rubber coated . The techs got the Spindle probe dialed in perfect but the TS never got within a few thow. A few weeks into this fiasco with all the other BS problems the POS machines came with (Along with several videos degrading Hurco) they finally brought in the proper Renishaw shielded cable and cleared the problem up.

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    Thanks for the replies.
    But I'm not going to reply to all of them. Most of the questions are already answered before in this topic (alignment, ball bar tests, backlash, and so on).

    With the measurements I did and feedback from Renishaw I'm 100% sure it's not an axis/machine issue. It's something with the signal, cable, input.
    I will check if the cable is shielded.
    And keep you updated how this is going to be solved.

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    Does the TS27 connect to an HSI interface? Without it, operation could be sketchy...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roooster View Post
    Does the TS27 connect to an HSI interface? Without it, operation could be sketchy...
    Yes it has a HSI interface

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    Update

    Dealer is arranging new Renishaw parts. Need to wait a month before they have time to install it (holidays around here...).
    If this won't solve it they are going to check the PLC,

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcncj View Post
    Update

    Dealer is arranging new Renishaw parts. Need to wait a month before they have time to install it (holidays around here...).
    If this won't solve it they are going to check the PLC,
    This is weird. TS27R connects to HSI with 2 (TWO !!!) potential free wires. Wait another month for that !??

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    Quote Originally Posted by PROBE View Post
    This is weird. TS27R connects to HSI with 2 (TWO !!!) potential free wires. Wait another month for that !??

    Welcome to the world of Hurco!! Nothing happens fast and and when it does happen it's usually wrong!

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    Wow. I got really worried reading this topic. Ive ordered new vm10i with probing and its due to be installed on 5th of August.

    Just to clarify did you buy the machine from Hurco Uk or some reseller?

    When buying probing and tool setting system there is 1 full day of training at your location included, reserved just for probing. Didnt you get that? I cant believe that aplication engineer would judge your repitability problems as normal. Machine is sold with 5 microns positional accuracy and the tool setter repeats to 2 microns.

    Anyway I hope they will sort out your issues.

    Kamil

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    You won’t have any problems, Kamil. Chances are, I’ll fit your probe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamil19951 View Post
    Wow. I got really worried reading this topic. Ive ordered new vm10i with probing and its due to be installed on 5th of August.

    Just to clarify did you buy the machine from Hurco Uk or some reseller?

    When buying probing and tool setting system there is 1 full day of training at your location included, reserved just for probing. Didnt you get that? I cant believe that aplication engineer would judge your repitability problems as normal. Machine is sold with 5 microns positional accuracy and the tool setter repeats to 2 microns.

    Anyway I hope they will sort out your issues.

    Kamil
    I'm sure you will be 100% fine no matter what as Hurco UK and Renishaw (home town/ mother ship UK) are both really good.


    What OP seems to be having trouble with and reportedly driving him "Crazy" (his words), is that he gets or got very mixed information from his supply chain and 'peeps" he's dealing with on the ground. So it comes across as one in three pieces of information is correct, one in three pieces of information is confusing or a bit "Iffy", and one in three pieces of information he has been given is just "Porky pies"/ lies / attempting to pull the wool over his eyes / butt covering (on their part.). That IS "Crazy" making behavior. OP is being "Gaslit"* by his service and supply people... (Or so it seems from what OP has reported.).

    Hurco and Renishaw UK won't do that to you even if you have one in 5000 chance of a real lemon. It can be "Fixed" / sorted out.

    _________________

    * Gaslighting / gaslit ---> Gaslighting - Wikipedia

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    Quote Originally Posted by PROBE View Post
    This is weird. TS27R connects to HSI with 2 (TWO !!!) potential free wires. Wait another month for that !??
    I assume they are going to replace the TS27R and cable. And maybe the HSI interface.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kamil19951 View Post
    Wow. I got really worried reading this topic. Ive ordered new vm10i with probing and its due to be installed on 5th of August.

    Just to clarify did you buy the machine from Hurco Uk or some reseller?

    When buying probing and tool setting system there is 1 full day of training at your location included, reserved just for probing. Didnt you get that? I cant believe that aplication engineer would judge your repitability problems as normal. Machine is sold with 5 microns positional accuracy and the tool setter repeats to 2 microns.

    Anyway I hope they will sort out your issues.

    Kamil
    I'm from the Netherlands. We have a dealer that sells Hurco and some other brands.
    The service guy is also Dutch, but works directly for Hurco Germany. Which is the main location for Hurco in Europe if I'm right.
    I can't buy directly from Hurco Germany, they forward me to the local dealer.

    There is no training option at my location. I can get training in Munich (germany) (at their facility) for 3 days for 2.400 or 3000 Euro.
    But I didn't want training because the control is no rocket science and I learn faster by doing it myself. Besides I had to close the shop, arrange a flight and somewhere to stay. Didn't had time for all that stuff...

    Yes I'm real disappointed in the installation, service guy and dealer.
    They have send the installation guy 1 week before the machine would be installed on training in Germany, on how to setup the machine and install a 4th axis.
    After the installation there was a huge list of things who where wrong.
    - Door interlocks not working
    - Toolchanger turning the wrong way (phase wrong)
    - Coolant tank leaking, everyday I had 4liter of coolant on the floor
    - Bought the Ethernet option for 900 Euro (that's a different topic...900,- Euro to enable the Ethernet port in Windows embedded standard...). Ethernet was not psychically connected (inside the control cabinet) after the machine was installed. Not much of a problem,. But it gives an idea how they work..
    - Spindle power meter doesn't work. It's max 4% and you can hear the spindle motor is working very hard to keep up. Most of the time it is at 0%
    Feed/speed calculator with power/torque ratings of a VM10i says it's a 10HP cut. That's not 4%. Installation guy said "it's just Aluminium". They have no idea what they are saying...
    - TS27R not aligned
    - OMP60 stylus not aligned
    - It was the first time he had to install a 4th axis. It took longer than expected and had no idea what to look for once the axis didn't work. He removed the covers on the 4th axis. But never used liquid gasket to seal the covers back in place (should be done according to the Kitagawa manual). That's something I have to do myself. It would be a pita to find out the connectors and motors are getting coolant in. And the unit would fail after some time because of a mechanic who has no idea how to install it.
    - Washdown hose was leaking like a maniac. It's luckily already replaced.
    - And some small things which I fixed myself.

    It was the first time the guy installed a Hurco. I have allot of patience and I don't blame him. The owner (who sold me the machine) should have send someone with him, to check his work. I hate Haas (my previous machine was a Haas), but they knew how to setup a machine!

    Then came the service guy (he works for Hurco Germany).
    Also very friendly. Fixed the issues of the installation guy.
    Bit of the same story though. He tried to let me believe it's machine growth and nobody uses the TS27R with rotating tools...
    Everything within 0,02mm was good. According to Hurco Germany. The actual variations are much higher.
    But he had holiday after the days he worked at my location, so he was in a hurry...

    When I measured the TS27R 'last week by myself for concentricity it still had 0,01mm runout. So he didn't do this best to set it up...
    Measured from the top surface of the TS27R the X with a dial gauge it was perfect. Y was wrong by a couple of micron. Which explains the concentricity issue.

    I'm pretty handy myself but I'm sure some people aren't and just believe the service guys.
    Even with all the measurements I had done to eliminate backlash/machine accuracy issues he would ignore the information.
    I didn't hear back from the dealer and contacted Renishaw myself. They agree with me that it's not good.
    Did a couple of tests for them, and they contacted the service guy. Big thanks to Renishaw for helping me out!
    Service guy is now on holiday and still no news from the dealer.
    I contacted them and they still want to let me believe it's thermal growth. Impacted by direct sunlight or a slight breeze of fresh air that gets into the shop...uhu...that's why there is always a huge variation in diameter. And the tool length keeps rising by a few micron with each probe cycle directly after each other. But in the end they ordered new parts and are trying to solve the issue. I need to wait 1 month because of holidays...but at least something is happening...

    The machine itself is pretty great. And I love the Ultimotion option! My Haas even with HSM option is jerky when using allot code. The Hurco does this without hesitation, works great. Most of the issues are due to lack of knowledge of the installation guy. I don't blame him. His boss should have arranged someone with him, who would check his work. They don't have the right tools to calibrate the Renishaw. They had to make something by their own with a collet holder and pin gauge of mine.
    But in the end I'm the one who is paying for the delivered bad work. I'm a one man shop and only have 1 mill. Mill got issues or a service guy working? ok then there is no money coming in. That's the reason why I'm mad. I don't hear anything from them unless I contact them with proof that it's wrong. And then they still want to let me believe everything is fine.
    But like I said before, it's my first and last Hurco. Great machine, bad service.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcncj View Post
    I assume they are going to replace the TS27R and cable. And maybe the HSI interface.




    I'm from the Netherlands. We have a dealer that sells Hurco and some other brands.
    The service guy is also Dutch, but works directly for Hurco Germany. Which is the main location for Hurco in Europe if I'm right.
    I can't buy directly from Hurco Germany, they forward me to the local dealer.

    There is no training option at my location. I can get training in Munich (germany) (at their facility) for 3 days for 2.400 or 3000 Euro.
    But I didn't want training because the control is no rocket science and I learn faster by doing it myself. Besides I had to close the shop, arrange a flight and somewhere to stay. Didn't had time for all that stuff...

    Yes I'm real disappointed in the installation, service guy and dealer.
    They have send the installation guy 1 week before the machine would be installed on training in Germany, on how to setup the machine and install a 4th axis.
    After the installation there was a huge list of things who where wrong.
    - Door interlocks not working
    - Toolchanger turning the wrong way (phase wrong)
    - Coolant tank leaking, everyday I had 4liter of coolant on the floor
    - Bought the Ethernet option for 900 Euro (that's a different topic...900,- Euro to enable the Ethernet port in Windows embedded standard...). Ethernet was not psychically connected (inside the control cabinet) after the machine was installed. Not much of a problem,. But it gives an idea how they work..
    - Spindle power meter doesn't work. It's max 4% and you can hear the spindle motor is working very hard to keep up. Most of the time it is at 0%
    Feed/speed calculator with power/torque ratings of a VM10i says it's a 10HP cut. That's not 4%. Installation guy said "it's just Aluminium". They have no idea what they are saying...
    - TS27R not aligned
    - OMP60 stylus not aligned
    - It was the first time he had to install a 4th axis. It took longer than expected and had no idea what to look for once the axis didn't work. He removed the covers on the 4th axis. But never used liquid gasket to seal the covers back in place (should be done according to the Kitagawa manual). That's something I have to do myself. It would be a pita to find out the connectors and motors are getting coolant in. And the unit would fail after some time because of a mechanic who has no idea how to install it.
    - Washdown hose was leaking like a maniac. It's luckily already replaced.
    - And some small things which I fixed myself.

    It was the first time the guy installed a Hurco. I have allot of patience and I don't blame him. The owner (who sold me the machine) should have send someone with him, to check his work. I hate Haas (my previous machine was a Haas), but they knew how to setup a machine!

    Then came the service guy (he works for Hurco Germany).
    Also very friendly. Fixed the issues of the installation guy.
    Bit of the same story though. He tried to let me believe it's machine growth and nobody uses the TS27R with rotating tools...
    Everything within 0,02mm was good. According to Hurco Germany. The actual variations are much higher.
    But he had holiday after the days he worked at my location, so he was in a hurry...

    When I measured the TS27R 'last week by myself for concentricity it still had 0,01mm runout. So he didn't do this best to set it up...
    Measured from the top surface of the TS27R the X with a dial gauge it was perfect. Y was wrong by a couple of micron. Which explains the concentricity issue.

    I'm pretty handy myself but I'm sure some people aren't and just believe the service guys.
    Even with all the measurements I had done to eliminate backlash/machine accuracy issues he would ignore the information.
    I didn't hear back from the dealer and contacted Renishaw myself. They agree with me that it's not good.
    Did a couple of tests for them, and they contacted the service guy. Big thanks to Renishaw for helping me out!
    Service guy is now on holiday and still no news from the dealer.
    I contacted them and they still want to let me believe it's thermal growth. Impacted by direct sunlight or a slight breeze of fresh air that gets into the shop...uhu...that's why there is always a huge variation in diameter. And the tool length keeps rising by a few micron with each probe cycle directly after each other. But in the end they ordered new parts and are trying to solve the issue. I need to wait 1 month because of holidays...but at least something is happening...

    The machine itself is pretty great. And I love the Ultimotion option! My Haas even with HSM option is jerky when using allot code. The Hurco does this without hesitation, works great. Most of the issues are due to lack of knowledge of the installation guy. I don't blame him. His boss should have arranged someone with him, who would check his work. They don't have the right tools to calibrate the Renishaw. They had to make something by their own with a collet holder and pin gauge of mine.
    But in the end I'm the one who is paying for the delivered bad work. I'm a one man shop and only have 1 mill. Mill got issues or a service guy working? ok then there is no money coming in. That's the reason why I'm mad. I don't hear anything from them unless I contact them with proof that it's wrong. And then they still want to let me believe everything is fine.
    But like I said before, it's my first and last Hurco. Great machine, bad service.
    Wow.

    Side note; Cool that you are from the Netherlands/ Dutch.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________


    Here's some rough "Metrics" that might help you gain some sort of perspective tolerance / tolerance stack up within your machine + thermal issues.

    The VM 10i is the base model -ish weighs 6500 lbs -ish but can be accurate.

    However your machine does not have scales nor a spindle chiller and therefore is reliant on thermal compensation within the machine . i.e. a few temperature sensors and the control makes crude adjustments (providing that has been set / up calibrated properly at the factory etc.).

    Spindle runout: (at the spindle nose) ≃ 0.002 mm to 0.003 mm (2.5 μm -ish (2.5 to 3 micron).

    Circularity: (XY circular interpolation) that a decent Taiwanese machine can achieve is of the order of 0.005 mm ++ (5 to 6 μm.). We are not talking XZ and YZ planes (which will be lower accuracy).

    Positional accuracy: ... with HURCO on that level of machine will be of the order of +/- two tenths; +/- 0.0002" a spread of 4 - "tenths" 0.0004" at 2 sigma variation (full travel). Basically +/- 0.005 mm (a 10 micron spread in worst case scenario.). That more or less takes into account worst case scenario bi-directional repeatability.


    Thermal expansion
    : Thermal expansion of steel / ferrous alloys range between 9 and 14 x 10^-6 … I'll use 11 x 10-6 / °C …

    1 degree (Celsius or Kelvin) increase on a 600 mm piece of "Steel" will result in a 7 μm increase in length.


    10 degree increase on a 600 mm ferrous alloy piece (ball screw, table , castings etc. (average ish value) ≃ 70 μm increase in length. similar bear in mind for spindle growth through higher temperature range.


    Spindle growth
    : ... could be of the order of 12 micron in Z. (or more for some machines of the order of 20 μm.).

    Your control should be able to manage thermal changes and keep it within ten to 12 micron. (Japanese machines without scales can manage 8 micron compensations (thermal computation + auto adjustment.)).

    In spite of all that the machine in any given instance should be able to repeat positionally in X and Y to about 0.0002" or 5 μm but that will probably translate to part accuracies in easy materials like aluminum to 10 μm to 15 μm.


    General tolerance stack up for your machine could be: 3μm runout on spindle nose + (tool length / setting errors --> + additional 5 μm runout ) + 5 um positional errors and circularity + Differential* thermal drift + additional 10 micron -ish ) = all lumped together ≃ 20 to 25 μm (worst case scenario) 0.02 to 0.025 mm

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______


    * With skill and a lot of mindful gauging and awareness of differential thermal conditions (especially with different materials) of you work piece versus current temperature of your machine, clever tool setting and artful application of 'comps" you could get to 10 to 15 micron part accuracies.

    ---> That's why machines with all the bells and whistles cost a lot more with spindle chillers, and scales and temperature sensors throughout a machine + good machine management software on the control + massive castings and key points in a machine actively cooled.

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    ^^^ It's not all gloom and doom , these guys x... X-ray physicists / astronomers / engineers (that now make "Universal" spectacles) managed to map out their fairly humble Hurco machine with additional temperature sensors on their VM 10, and map out thermally their shop environment [In space and time] + (climate controlled facility) to be able to do reasonably accurate mold work + use of on machine laser tool setter.

    They claim near sub 5 micron for certain machined features.

    I'm guessing they also got pretty jiggy on he tooling front and maybe have even used air spindles here and there ?

    Some of those parts look "run of the mill" / slightly "Meh" (maybe) ? and some look really excellent / near astonishing. Hard to tell from a video (no finger nail run over part "feel" to get a sense of surface finishes for longer machining times + actual metrology. ).

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    You either have wiring/electrical issues, or you do not know how to properly calibrate the Rensishaw probing system using the set screws. They have to be tight. My runout for a calibration cycle is typically 0.0001-0.0003"

    The deflection offsets in my Hurco ring gage cycle usually have a few results above 0.001"....but most defelection offsets are less than 0.001-0.0005"

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    Quote Originally Posted by metalmadness View Post
    You either have wiring/electrical issues, or you do not know how to properly calibrate the Rensishaw probing system using the set screws. They have to be tight. My runout for a calibration cycle is typically 0.0001-0.0003"

    The deflection offsets in my Hurco ring gage cycle usually have a few results above 0.001"....but most defelection offsets are less than 0.001-0.0005"
    tcncj is metric / Dutch Zimbabwean , not that he can't convert metric to imperial and vice versa. + Hurco Netherlands + Hurco Germany ---> Metric. German Hurco tech ---> most familiar with metric (most probably). + Zimbabwean mechanic.



    Quote Originally Posted by metalmadness View Post
    [In metric edit ] (apologies + emphasis added. ) ~ You either have wiring/electrical issues, or you do not know how to properly calibrate the Rensishaw probing system using the set screws. They have to be tight. My runout for a calibration cycle is typically 0.0001-0.0003" [approx. 0.0025 mm - 0.0075 mm | 2.5 micron to 7.5 micron | ].

    The deflection offsets in my Hurco ring gage cycle usually have a few results above 0.001" [ ≈ 25 micron (0.025 mm) ]....but most deflection offsets are less than 0.001-0.0005" [ ≈ 25 micron - 12.5 micron -ish ].
    Hence these anomalies as follows …

    Quote Originally Posted by tcncj View Post
    @ the latest replies.
    OMP works, and repeats perfectly.
    TS27R doesn't.

    <snip>

    - A tool length probing which increases by 2-4 micron each time you probe is not machine growth! When I probe 100 times the different is 0,1mm. When I probe 150 times it's 0,15mm difference.
    - Diameter probing has a variation of 0,06mm. Sometimes the value is big and then it's smaller. So if it's machine growth it's increasing or decreasing. And not changing all the time.
    - Besides there is a difference in X and Y axis diameter probing of 0,1mm.
    - All tested with a cold and warm machine
    - OMP60 is perfect and repeats (cold and warm machine, 25 times tested) within 2 micron.
    Some shell mills with inserts are not super concentric to a couple of micron either but 0.1 mm ---> 100 micron for "difference in X and Y axis diameter probing of …" In old English / imperial units that's nearly 0.004" …


    A lot of this seems to be "Off" by roughly a factor x 10 ?

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __

    Just so we are on the same page here... (most imperial people know this as they have to convert from time to time in a slightly more geeked out higher tolerance world specified in micron. ).

    1 micron ≈ 40 millionths of an inch 0.00004"


    2.5 micron ≈ to a "tenth" (one ten thousandth of an inch.). 0.0001"

    5 micron ≈ "two tenths " ~ 0.0002"

    10 micron ≈ 0.0004"

    15 micron ≈ 0.0006"

    20 micron ≈ 0.0008"

    25 micron ≈ 0.001"

    100 micron ≈ 0.004"

    (I'll check for inevitable blunders in my bad math.).


    One micron ≡ 1 μm . One micron is 1 X 10^-6 Meters. One micron or 1 μm = 0.001 mm . 100 μm = 0.1 mm,

    There are 1000 μm in one millimeter.

    There are a million micro meters (μm) in one metric meter. Hence why we call it a "Micron" (x 10^-6 Meters.).

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    Small update
    Had to wait a month before the mechanic would arrive

    This monday he arrived. First thing he said....what do I need to do?
    New TS27R kit hasn't arrived yet so he could go to the next customer... They (hurco dealer) shipped it too late last week.

    Yesterday I received the new kit. But it's a used one. Scratches on the "controller box" and the unit itself. But I'm at a point that I'm happy once the stuff works...
    Need to wait another week before the mechanic comes to install the unit.

    I found out that the spindle position is not centered to the TS27R. It got 0,01mm runout.
    Mechanic said that it didn't matter..."it's only 0,01mm".
    But that's bs imho.

    Spindle power meter also doesn't work.
    I finally hope all the issues with the machine will be solved.

    First and last Hurco for me
    It's a shame because the machine itself is pretty good.

  21. #77
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    Who is your service guy?
    Is it Shaun?

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    No
    I'm from the Netherlands
    Service guys are from Hurco Germany

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    Update

    The Hsi interface got finally replaced.
    Which resulted in much better repeatability than before.

    Each time you probe the tool length it will go up by 0,001 - 0,002mm.
    This was machine growth according to the mechanic.
    When I asked why the spindle probe (omp60) measures each time perfectly he couldn't answer my question.
    But at least the readings are much better than before...

    I still have to align the TS27 myself because there is a 0,01mm difference in the X direction.
    And the spindle is not centered above the TS27 when probed.
    Mechanic said "it's only 0,01mm"....

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcncj View Post
    No
    I'm from the Netherlands
    Service guys are from Hurco Germany
    If you're in the Netherlands why do you have your location set as Zimbabwe? It's not a default.

    That's somewhat specious.


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