Thread: Rigid Tapping Struggles

Originally Posted by Mike1974

Sorry, the "legendary" was supposed to come across as snarky. MSC is notorious for marking up everything they sell, then having "sales"

edit: interesting you linked that endmill from MSC, was just buying some stuff and noticed there is roughly a $30 price increase for 1 1/4 LOC vs 1 LOC!

Haha I see. I got the meaning, just wasnt sure if you were pulling a fast one or being serious.

On another note,

When drilling for a form tap...do you use a carbide drill? Is reaming necessary? Obviously tolerances come into a bigger role with form tapping.

Originally Posted by metalmadness

Haha I see. I got the meaning, just wasnt sure if you were pulling a fast one or being serious.

On another note,

When drilling for a form tap...do you use a carbide drill? Is reaming necessary? Obviously tolerances come into a bigger role with form tapping.

I use a 3fl MA Ford series 229 (carbide) in aluminum as often as possible. They are super at holding size and finish, and cut better than anything else I've ever used. I think it was GKoenig that turned me onto them on this forum. Amazing performance. Not cheap, but worth it. Speeds and feeds are the very best I've ever had. Hole condition is obviously really important for form tapping, and these drills get it done.

Originally Posted by metalmadness

When drilling for a form tap...do you use a carbide drill? Is reaming necessary? Obviously tolerances come into a bigger role with form tapping.

Carbide, sure, why not? But HSS, cobalt, vanadium, whatever, as long as the hole is the right size. And yes, the hole needs to be the right size!

Reaming is only necessary if the drill isn't working well. I use mostly OSG EX-gold, plus some MA Ford 3-flute, and MA Ford Twister drills at the small sizes. All of them consistently drill well within .001".

Regards.

Mike

OK all so I got some form taps and carbide drills for them.

On my first part I blew out my new 5-40 form tap! I used recommended spindle speed of 1000....perhaps that is off? Balax feed/speed chart shows like 3000 for that size so IDK,

however I just ran 22 holes of 1/4-20 as a test after having recharged my coolant to a proper 8% mix and all 22 holes came out beautifully.

What do you guys use for tapping fluid in 6061? I am on Blaser Synergy 735 at 8%. Do you recommend Tap Magic or similar and no standard coolant? Or do that PLUS the coolant?

It seems my coolant mix wasn't slippery enough for the taps.

I didn't read through the entire thread but is this issue on one machine or several?

One machine I have seemed to rigid tap fine until you ran over 1000ish rpm or tried to use a really small tap, turns out it needed R,1 or some foolishness like that to truly synchronize. I ended up changing a parameter to make it modal and already issued when the control is powered up.

Then I had a similar issue with another machine I got, turned out that one wanted G841 to truly sync.

Just something to maybe think about or look into.

Using G841 I can rigid tap no problem up to about 2500 rpm, above that and I trip the machine on reversal cause I don't have enough power run to it. But it has no problem taking 30hp cuts so there is little motivation to put it on a larger circuit. I'm sure I could adjust the decel/acell rates for tapping and get well over 3000rpm without changing the circuit but at the end of the day I don't tap enough stuff I can spin that fast to justify the time and effort.

Primarily on my 3 axis...I have a 5 axis of the same model but havent had issues. Also havent had to tap much on that one.

Originally Posted by Hardplates

I didn't read through the entire thread but is this issue on one machine or several?

One machine I have seemed to rigid tap fine until you ran over 1000ish rpm or tried to use a really small tap, turns out it needed R,1 or some foolishness like that to truly synchronize. I ended up changing a parameter to make it modal and already issued when the control is powered up.

Then I had a similar issue with another machine I got, turned out that one wanted G841 to truly sync.

Just something to maybe think about or look into.

Im running a Hurco in NC mode so my post outputs G84 + M29 (enables rigid tapping)...I asked my reseller about it and he said its just the way that Hurcos like it. IDK if G84.1 would work on mine but i don't see why not. But up until recently i havent had issue with taps breaking

Originally Posted by Hardplates

I didn't read through the entire thread but is this issue on one machine or several?

One machine I have seemed to rigid tap fine until you ran over 1000ish rpm or tried to use a really small tap, turns out it needed R,1 or some foolishness like that to truly synchronize. I ended up changing a parameter to make it modal and already issued when the control is powered up.

Then I had a similar issue with another machine I got, turned out that one wanted G841 to truly sync.

Just something to maybe think about or look into.

Using G841 I can rigid tap no problem up to about 2500 rpm, above that and I trip the machine on reversal cause I don't have enough power run to it. But it has no problem taking 30hp cuts so there is little motivation to put it on a larger circuit. I'm sure I could adjust the decel/acell rates for tapping and get well over 3000rpm without changing the circuit but at the end of the day I don't tap enough stuff I can spin that fast to justify the time and effort.

I am also getting my machines serviced Monday so I am going to see if there is anything going on with the drive, encoder, or spindle that might be influencing this.

Originally Posted by metalmadness

Im running a Hurco in NC mode so my post outputs G84 + M29 (enables rigid tapping)...I asked my reseller about it and he said its just the way that Hurcos like it. IDK if G84.1 would work on mine but i don't see why not. But up until recently i havent had issue with taps breaking

My Hitachi uses G841 not G84.1, not that it's relevant.

Maybe an issue with the encoder or something related to the machine??????

If you've run fine in the past and it seems to be related to one machine I would start suspecting the machine.

I guess what I am getting at is I have tapped many holes thinking I was synchronized but I wasn't. At slower speeds with larger taps I've found it possible to rigid tap in asynchronous mode, by accident of course.

Originally Posted by metalmadness

I am also getting my machines serviced Monday so I am going to see if there is anything going on with the drive, encoder, or spindle that might be influencing this.

Does your manual or the support desk say anything about max rpm range for tapping?
What material were you tapping using the 5-40? If aluminum, then 1K rpm should be more than slow enough. I'd run at the max your machine will tap. Torque should not be a problem with a 5-40 thread.
The g29 is needed with Fanuc controls, at least some of them (did on my Robodrill), and it did matter where you put it in the code. Does your Hurco use a Fanuc, or Fanuc plus user interface?
Proper coolant/tapping fluid always makes things better. If tapping aluminum, your coolant should be fine. If some crummy 304 or other nasty stuff, then you might need some magic tapping fluid.
Double check and make sure the hole diameter is correct before tapping. This is important. Sometimes things aren't right, and that WILL be a problem. (DAMHIK)
Good luck!

We have five Hurco VMCs (VM10i, VM30is, VMX30Ui) and we run a ton of aluminum parts with form tapped holes in them. Generally around 800 RPM for 1/4 or smaller tapped holes. I think it could go faster but I haven't tried. No issues breaking taps.

The biggest thing is to check hole size as was mentioned, a little small and they will break, within range and it will tap tens of thousands of holes in Al. We use regular ER16/ER32 collets. Qualchem 250c coolant, about 8%. Most of our form taps are OSG and Balax. Uncoated.

For blind holes I generally program tap tip to stop at the same depth as hole full diameter end. That leaves enough safety room for small chips that might get in there, etc. I start tapping about 0.1" above part surface, not sure if it's necessary but I figure it might need a little time to get up to speed and stabilize synchronization before it hits the hole.

Alex

Only time I've had issues breaking form taps in 6061 is low coolant (I use Qualichem 251C at 8-12%, but I didn't mix for one machine and it was down at 4-5%, causing issues) or when the hole was too small. I always pin gauge the hole the first time and with carbide drills I sometimes had to go to a larger drill or to a reamer.

Originally Posted by metalmadness

What do you guys use for tapping fluid in 6061? I am on Blaser Synergy 735 at 8%. Do you recommend Tap Magic or similar and no standard coolant? Or do that PLUS the coolant?

It seems my coolant mix wasn't slippery enough for the taps.

I have had a ton of success in aluminum with OSG Exopro XPF form taps and TrimSol 690XT at 8%, no additional tapping fluid. (I almost never use cut taps; if I can't form tap it I get out a thread mill.)

Originally Posted by metalmadness

I am on Blaser Synergy 735 at 8%.

Holy crap, that there could be your problem ^^^

That stuff is complete crap imho. I went through the whole RO deal to try that stuff out. I really liked it being clear, but it is not lubricious.. period. I got a phone call with a guy at Blaser corporate at one point and even he confessed he didn't like it.

(other thread, tapping issues came up: New clear Blaser Synergy 735 coolant?)

Originally Posted by Milland

Yeah, get some more form taps, but also try to confirm that the servos 'n stuff for Z are working correctly so you're not losing rotary/linear coordination. Or get a tapping tension-compression holder for a little extra "give" in case there is error in the electronics.

Could you info me on the method of checking for rotary/linear coordination or point me in the right direction. I seem to be having tapping issues as well and I am leaning to this is the problem.

thanks Greg

Originally Posted by CosmosK

Holy crap, that there could be your problem ^^^

That stuff is complete crap imho. I went through the whole RO deal to try that stuff out. I really liked it being clear, but it is not lubricious.. period. I got a phone call with a guy at Blaser corporate at one point and even he confessed he didn't like it.

(other thread, tapping issues came up: New clear Blaser Synergy 735 coolant?)

As far as Im concerned it isn't crap at all...it has proven quite good in fact. I haven't had tapping issues since I bumped the concentration up a little higher.

Originally Posted by metalmadness

As far as Im concerned it isn't crap at all...it has proven quite good in fact. I haven't had tapping issues since I bumped the concentration up a little higher.

I'm glad it's working for you. I wish it had for me, but I had issues with it. From what I've read on here, lots of people had issues. I gave up.