ROI Brother S100 vs Haas DM-2
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    Default ROI Brother S100 vs Haas DM-2

    Hi All,

    I am looking to buy my first 'real' VMC and am wondering what the opinions are on which machine would retain it's value more (% of new price). I am looking at keeping the machine for approximately 7 years, and it will be (very) gently used, mainly cutting aluminum. Haas DM-2 with 15k spindle, vs Brother S700 with 16k spindle. Similar options. Brother will cost me a little more, but may be worth it if the total cost of ownership is the same or better. I assume both Yamazen and Haas will have great support.

    Thanks

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    Oh gosh, this ought to be fun ...

    Regards.

    Mike

    (OP, if you want, contact me and I can give you my experiences back in 2016, when I was looking at the exact same machines that you are now looking at.)

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    Do we really have much long term resale info on the brothers?

    It's pretty well known that Haas machines hold their resale value well, and if it's "lightly" used it will be much higher than a job shop machine.

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    Resale would be a tough call.
    I don't look at it like that - the machine is there to make money. If one makes you 50K more in the same hours, but you sell it for 15K less, you'd like that, right?
    My uptime, and throughput, has been better on my Brother machines than the Haas machines I bought new. I've had zero issues on my Brothers. The two Haas machines I bought new I had issues with, both in and out of warranty. I also found Yamazen more responsive in support if I have a question.
    Whichever one you get, be sure to equip it the way you want when you purchase. Stuff like dual contact spindle, etc.
    Good luck!

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    there is someone that was trying to resell a twin pallet brothers on her about a year ago at a "HUGE" loose... I think Brothers have there place in making parts but there not as universal as a cat40 machine.. I am in the market this week for a new mill and the DM2 is at the top of the list .. there on sale this week with a auger for $53,995 ...

    I looked at up grading to a 15K spindle but after looking at the cycle times on the programs I run every month most of then only have one or two tools I run at 12k now and when I ran the numbers on them I would really not be saving a lot ...

    one needs to look at the numbers and how they really play out on a VMC ,,, a VMC in a production job is doing good to have a spindle on time of 33% ... so meaning the spindle is on 20 min out of a hour ... when I ran the numbers on my programs it looked like at best I could speed them up by 10% going from 10k to 15k on the spindle ,,, most of the time was still spent changing tools or running at slower speeds on finish cuts or using tool that could not be ran that fast .. so I would save 2 min a hour is all... for the cost of going from 10k to 15k being $10,295 or 20% more for the machine the numbers just do not work for my application.

    why spend 20% more to save 2% of my time?

    If I want more parts per hour I put a new mill in the shop ... when I went from one mill to two mills my production went up by 300% over night ,,, at all times one machine was running even if I was doing a setup on the second machine ... when I went from 2 to 3 mills my production still doubled by keeping two mills running at all and a lot of the time all three mills at a time.

    This might sound funny but a machine is "SUPER" cheap to own ,,, If I buy a new DT2 this week I well be into it about 60K by the time its on my floor ,,,,,, but I well save 21K on my taxes this year .. so the DT2 well cost me $39k this year ...... in lets say 10 years I can still sell the machine for 30K ... so for under a thousand bucks a year I can use a DM2

    I changed from Fadals to Haas mills about 6 years ago and have had vary good luck with them aside from the early NGC "POS" they sent me ,, Under warranty I have had them change out some burned out LED lights and one Auger motor. never had to pay for a single service call that was not my screw up ..

    There not the fastest or more ridged machine I have ever worked on but being a shop owner there hands down the best ROI i have seen by a long shot

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    Don't look at ROI, look at which one will make your wallet fatter.
    Answer = Brother

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    Don't look at ROI, look at which one will make your wallet fatter.
    Answer = Brother
    Will it though? OP said the machine will be 'very gently used' after 7 years, which doesn't make it sound like he's running production and low volume work doesn't sound like the sweet spot for either a DM series mill or a Speedio to me... Both of those machines would really want to be running fast all the time to maximize their ROI, and 'very gently used after 7 years' doesn't sound like that.

    I think we would need much more info on how the machine is going to be used to give answers to this question... If 'very gently used' means low volume prototype work then OP would likely be better off going with a cheaper VF series mill and saving some money, not to mention that will be easier to re-sell 7 years from now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aarongough View Post
    Will it though? OP said the machine will be 'very gently used' after 7 years, which doesn't make it sound like he's running production and low volume work doesn't sound like the sweet spot for either a DM series mill or a Speedio to me... Both of those machines would really want to be running fast all the time to maximize their ROI, and 'very gently used after 7 years' doesn't sound like that.

    I think we would need much more info on how the machine is going to be used to give answers to this question... If 'very gently used' means low volume prototype work then OP would likely be better off going with a cheaper VF series mill and saving some money, not to mention that will be easier to re-sell 7 years from now.
    Agree 100%. The brother may be faster (and better?) than a Haas DM series mill, I am not familiar with them enough to say. BUT like you said, prototype and high volume production are 2 different animals. Even better *maybe* would be to buy a used something and save some cash for tooling. Tooling is not cheap when you add up quality holders and endmills, boring heads/bars inserts, etc...

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    I'd go with the dm2s.... Works great for prototype and production. Only real complaint is the 7" max tool length and you won't get better with the brother either.

    Bt30 is so weak compared to the cat40....

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    I wouldn't buy a Brother based on resale value, or for prototype work.

    Personally, in the OP's situation (which we know very little about):
    I would buy a 2010-2014'ish haas VF

    But, it is always easy to spend somebody else's money. And, I am glad I am not in that situation (I have bought my last haas, LOL)

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    Only real complaint is the 7" max tool length and you won't get better with the brother either.
    Uh, that's not true . In my Speedio S700X1, my Stanny boring head is well over 7" in some configurations. Obviously it's dodgey to spin an 8" gage-length tool at 16,000 RPM, but there are no interference issues for tools that are 7"+.

    Regards.

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finegrain View Post
    Uh, that's not true . My Stanny boring head is well over 7" in some configurations. Obviously it's dodgey to spin an 8" gage-length tool at 16,000 RPM, but there are no interference issues for tools that are 7"+.

    Regards.

    Mike
    Yeah? Try doing a toolchange in a dm2 with that tool. Take a video so we can see the damage it does...

    Speaking from experience of course!

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    I feel the Brother is a far superior machine in terms of machining, accuracy, longevity and high speed contouring. That being said, I own Haas machines. I have a couple of reasons. I do protos and shortrun production. My machines are nowhere near 100% utilization (programming, design, bullshit emails and phone calls...), that means that I will show a smaller ROI on the improved cycle times and uptime. If I had a monkey or a robot running production, those numbers would be different.

    The parts that I build are not extraordinary in their tight tolerances (compared to aesthetics and lead time). While I almost never have a tolerance issue that I can attribute to the machine and not the idiot operator or programmer (both me), I do feel that the Brother machine is tighter and has a more robust control that yields better accuracy at high speeds.

    Longevity and uptime are more theoretical to me than a burning issue like some members here. I can remember very few times in the last twenty years that one of my Haas machines has been down for more than a couple of days. Additionally, since they are relatively cheap, I have redundant machines. If one were to go down, I would be inconvenienced, not dead in the water. Haas service is an hour away, and the service manager at my HFO will take calls and fix things over the phone whenever possible.

    High speed surfacing is not amazing on Haas machines. That being said, I can make it work for the "soft" injection molds that make up a significant portion of my business. Good programming makes up for some of the weakness.

    Lastly, I really like the people that work at Haas and I have known them for >20 years. I'm sure that the people at Brother are great people as well, I just don't happen to know them.

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    Had so many broken tool pockets that we modified the post for the tool presenter to deny any tools longer than 6.875" gage length

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    Yeah? Try doing a toolchange in a dm2 with that tool. Take a video so we can see the damage it does...

    Speaking from experience of course!

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
    Oh, I forgot to clarify ... I was contesting your "you won't get better with the Brother either" comment. I run an S700X1, and have used tools well over 7" in that machine.

    Regards.

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finegrain View Post
    Oh, I forgot to clarify ... I was contesting your "you won't get better with the Brother either" comment. I run an S700X1, and have used tools well over 7" in that machine.

    Regards.

    Mike
    Makes sense!

    Running some long tools in the robodrills is always sketchy. I'm sure it's just as sketchy in a brother.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    .....Bt30 is so weak compared to the cat40....
    And 40 taper is so weak compared to 50 taper. I don't get the constant 30 vs 40 taper argument. They have different capabilities. Each will outshine the other when playing to their own strengths

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    Quote Originally Posted by aarongough View Post
    Will it though? OP said the machine will be 'very gently used' after 7 years, which doesn't make it sound like he's running production and low volume work doesn't sound like the sweet spot for either a DM series mill or a Speedio to me... Both of those machines would really want to be running fast all the time to maximize their ROI, and 'very gently used after 7 years' doesn't sound like that.

    I think we would need much more info on how the machine is going to be used to give answers to this question... If 'very gently used' means low volume prototype work then OP would likely be better off going with a cheaper VF series mill and saving some money, not to mention that will be easier to re-sell 7 years from now.
    That is true, but who can predict what will happen 7 years from now?
    If the OP buys the Brother, he might realize how fast it is and decide to change their mind and start doing production or running his jobs faster or taking on more work. This is where the Brother would shine.
    Money is a good motivator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    And 40 taper is so weak compared to 50 taper. I don't get the constant 30 vs 40 taper argument. They have different capabilities. Each will outshine the other when playing to their own strengths
    I own both and the 40 taper outshines the 30 in every aspect.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    I own both and the 40 taper outshines the 30 in every aspect.
    For you. In your world. I own both as well. And, it is painfully obvious where each outshines the other.

    There is no way in hell anything is going to beat a Brother at tool-change time. You ain't changing a 40 taper that fast.
    Not because it can't be done. I am sure it can. But, nobody is doing it.
    And, there are plenty of shops in this world where those seconds make or break profitability.

    Would I ever want a 30 taper as the only spindle in my shop? Hell no! (I kinda almost don't want the one I have)

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