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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    For you. In your world. I own both as well. And, it is painfully obvious where each outshines the other.

    There is no way in hell anything is going to beat a Brother at tool-change time. You ain't changing a 40 taper that fast.
    Not because it can't be done. I am sure it can. But, nobody is doing it.
    And, there are plenty of shops in this world where those seconds make or break profitability.

    Would I ever want a 30 taper as the only spindle in my shop? Hell no! (I kinda almost don't want the one I have)
    The speedio s700x1 toolchange is 1.4 second chip to chip

    The Haas dm2 is 1.6 second chip to chip.

    Would take some 18,000 tool changes to save an hour of time. Thats a shitload of toolchanges



    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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  3. #22
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    Thanks for all the responses. I should have mentioned that the reason I am looking at these two machines is that I have a low arched doorway, and these both fit. A VF will not fit unless I remove the ATC, which I would rather not deal with. Also, I have limited space, so I will have to limit myself to a single VMC.

    My immediate application is an assembly of 12 parts, aluminum. With a 5k spindle I spend about 40% of time machining with EM 3/16 or smaller, and about 15% of time surfacing. I plan on fixturing 20-24 parts at a time. I am guessing that a 15k spindle vs 12k spindle will save me around 10% of time, but I haven't done calculations. I will be using this machine for other jobs, so a faster spindle will just offer some more flexibility in the future. The truth is that both machines are a huge improvement over what I am using now, and I will be happy with either. I have looked at some used machines, but since this is my first 'real' machine, I'd rather pay a bit more for some piece of mind. I have to say that the folks at Yamazen have been very responsive and I get the sense that I will receive great support. I am sure that the same would be true of Haas. What it may boil down to is 40 vs 30 taper.

    Thanks, Dan

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  5. #23
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    Wheeliekings advice is solid. No way would many of us choose to only have a 30 taper in the shop.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    The speedio s700x1 toolchange is 1.4 second chip to chip

    The Haas dm2 is 1.6 second chip to chip.

    Would take some 18,000 tool changes to save an hour of time. Thats a shitload of toolchanges
    The Brother's tool change time is at max RPM. That's where the two specs differ.

    If you've never seen a Brother running at 16,000 RPM, change tools, and get back into the part at 16,000 RPM, all in less than 2 seconds, ask for a demo at the next trade show. It's a sight to behold. Their synchronized tapping speed is also ridiculous.

    Whether that kind of speed will benefit your shop is completely subjective. Haas makes a fine machine and their decision to spec their DM-2 with a CAT40 provides a number benefits over a 30 taper. It comes at the expense of spindle spool up/down time.

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  9. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    The speedio s700x1 toolchange is 1.4 second chip to chip

    The Haas dm2 is 1.6 second chip to chip.

    Would take some 18,000 tool changes to save an hour of time. Thats a shitload of toolchanges



    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
    I just went and watched some dm-2 videos.
    Don't care what the spec says. Chip to chip, the haas is not in Brother territory.
    Not according to what my eyes just saw.

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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    I just went and watched some dm-2 videos.
    Don't care what the spec says. Chip to chip, the haas is not in Brother territory.
    Not according to what my eyes just saw.
    One thing that slows the chip to chip is the pcool. It has to change position before it will return to the cutting.

    Often we will set the pcool location to the same on all tools especially when we are using tsc operations.



    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by MiamiCNC View Post
    Thanks for all the responses. I should have mentioned that the reason I am looking at these two machines is that I have a low arched doorway, and these both fit. A VF will not fit unless I remove the ATC, which I would rather not deal with. Also, I have limited space, so I will have to limit myself to a single VMC.

    My immediate application is an assembly of 12 parts, aluminum. With a 5k spindle I spend about 40% of time machining with EM 3/16 or smaller, and about 15% of time surfacing. I plan on fixturing 20-24 parts at a time. I am guessing that a 15k spindle vs 12k spindle will save me around 10% of time, but I haven't done calculations. I will be using this machine for other jobs, so a faster spindle will just offer some more flexibility in the future. The truth is that both machines are a huge improvement over what I am using now, and I will be happy with either. I have looked at some used machines, but since this is my first 'real' machine, I'd rather pay a bit more for some piece of mind. I have to say that the folks at Yamazen have been very responsive and I get the sense that I will receive great support. I am sure that the same would be true of Haas. What it may boil down to is 40 vs 30 taper.

    Thanks, Dan
    If all your tools are smaller like that (I would say 1/2" and under) the Brother should definitely be a huge contender.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    I just went and watched some dm-2 videos.
    Don't care what the spec says. Chip to chip, the haas is not in Brother territory.
    Not according to what my eyes just saw.
    I just watched one and by the one Mississippi - two Mississippi method (yes very scientific! ) it looked to be about 3 seconds to me. Still pretty damn fast! If you are trying to manage getting the last 2 seconds out of a cycle time... better you than me.

    But as as9100 pointed out, even at 2x-3x the Brother time, that is a whole lotta tool changes to make up that *lost* time!

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    Not really . . . . I don’t do any production work, but I have a job right now that I am setting up, the cycle time for 7 operations is about 35 minutes and there are (I haven’t counted exactly) something like 60 tool changes. For round number say 120 tool changes an hour. I’ll run this job for 8 hours, for as long as it takes to run the parts, probably 3-4 days, that’s maybe 15 minutes a day? 45min to an hour saved?

    For me, it honestly doesn’t matter. . . Today my brother hasn’t been turned on, tomorrow it may not. That being said. . .

    It really depends on your intentions. I absolutely love my S1000. I got rid of a 8000lb 30x16 cat 40 and replaced it with an 8000lb 40x20 bt 30. The Brother makes infinitely more parts, faster, easier, with less electricity and much less air.

    It is my only CNC, my B&S has a 40 taper horizontal and a 30 taper vertical, my K&T has a 30 taper, my Moore has a . . . Well, it is a Moore.

    You might want to check with local Haas owners and see what the service is like in your area. You might want to see what their impressions of the machines are.

    I looked at both Brother and Haas, if you want details I can post more details, or search my old threads. I chose Brother. I have been thrilled with Yamazen, and plan to buy from them again.

    As to your ROI, when I give away my brother, all I care about is all the money it made me over the years. The CNC I had before the Brother I asked around if any friends were interested in it and gave it to the first guy who said yes. Could I have sold it? Maybe. . . But all I thought of was the money it made me, and set me up to buy a Brother.

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    Well, is the OP asking about Return On Investment or Residual Value?

    These are two very different things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I just watched one and by the one Mississippi - two Mississippi method (yes very scientific! ) it looked to be about 3 seconds to me. Still pretty damn fast! If you are trying to manage getting the last 2 seconds out of a cycle time... better you than me.

    But as as9100 pointed out, even at 2x-3x the Brother time, that is a whole lotta tool changes to make up that *lost* time!
    Here's one way to look at it (maybe it's just BS?)

    My S700X1's control tells me I have 345,000 tool changes since new in 2016. If I'm 1 second ahead on each tool change, that's 96 hours.

    Regards.

    Mike

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    I'm sure I come across as anti-Brother or a Haas fanboy, and it is what it is...

    I like what Fal said earlier, his machine didn't get turned on today. Hard to save time if you don't have parts to make (or you are programming, whatnot). Not beating him up by any means, just pointing out where everyone brags how much faster the Brother is, if that isn't your business model, it doesn't matter.

    I have to ask too, why is no one talking up Robodrills for BT30 spindles? Aren't they the same footprint as a speedio more or less? They have 1.5g accel vs 2.2 on the brother and 2200ipm rapid vs 1970ipm rapid on the Brothers so it seems they are definitely in the same league to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finegrain View Post
    Here's one way to look at it (maybe it's just BS?)

    My S700X1's control tells me I have 345,000 tool changes since new in 2016. If I'm 1 second ahead on each tool change, that's 96 hours.

    Regards.

    Mike
    Well that works out to 32 hours per year or roughly .6 hours per week. Sure faster is faster, but you probably literally piss that away (bathroom breaks) unless you have a robot loader or something.

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    i would buy another one

    YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I have to ask too, why is no one talking up Robodrills for BT30 spindles? Aren't they the same footprint as a speedio more or less? They have 1.5g accel vs 2.2 on the brother and 2200ipm rapid vs 1970ipm rapid on the Brothers so it seems they are definitely in the same league to me.
    I've also wondered about the other 30 tapers you never hear much about new, such as Enshu, Toyosk and Hyundai-Wia. I've heard some people talk about the old Enshu machines, but nothing new.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I'm sure I come across as anti-Brother or a Haas fanboy, and it is what it is...

    I like what Fal said earlier, his machine didn't get turned on today. Hard to save time if you don't have parts to make (or you are programming, whatnot). Not beating him up by any means, just pointing out where everyone brags how much faster the Brother is, if that isn't your business model, it doesn't matter.

    I have to ask too, why is no one talking up Robodrills for BT30 spindles? Aren't they the same footprint as a speedio more or less? They have 1.5g accel vs 2.2 on the brother and 2200ipm rapid vs 1970ipm rapid on the Brothers so it seems they are definitely in the same league to me.
    Easy, they are Fanuc and I hate Fanuc. Or maybe it hates me. . . I never could get that straight.


    If you go back through my old posts, I was much more focused on the reliability and long life of the Brother vs the Haas. Looking at what some of the production environments do to their brothers, I knew mine would last. But I bought it as a long term investment.

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    Fwiw, almost every video I've seen on you tube has shown no record breaking machining, especially in steels and stainless. In fact they seem quite slow. The tool changes are super fast and the drilling and tapping is amazing. The brothers are great machines and are fast, when it comes to brass tacks that cat 40 spindle is going to be able to take more abuse and be driven way harder. It's your money, spend it how you wish.

    Just remember, there's a handful of frequent users that have brother machines, there are probably thousands of members that have Haas machines that make plenty of money. Haas probably wouldn't be one of the largest CNC machine tool builder's in the world if they sucked as bad as some make them out to be.
    Last edited by plastikdreams; 12-04-2019 at 06:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I have to ask too, why is no one talking up Robodrills for BT30 spindles? Aren't they the same footprint as a speedio more or less? They have 1.5g accel vs 2.2 on the brother and 2200ipm rapid vs 1970ipm rapid on the Brothers so it seems they are definitely in the same league to me.
    Three reasons you don't hear much about the Robodrill:

    1- Methods kinda sucks.

    2- The Robodrills cost a good bit more. The ADV models that are on-par with the current Speedio cost way more, and the upcoming X2 Speedios beat it in most metrics.

    3- Brother offers the 16k RPM spindle.

    Ford v. Chevy debates aside, the Robodrill is a fantastic machine tool. I think it beats the Speedio in very intense surfacing applications (mold/medical/electrode work) and is the better options for simultaneous motion applications. Fanuc makes controls for a lot of very nice 5 axis machines, and so that high level of competency is present on the Robodrill. Brother is investing heavily in catching up, but Fanuc has a multi-decade head start in this area.

    Brother is a company that actually runs high-precision, mass consumer product scale factories. Like Citizen, machine tools are a necessary side business to the actual corporate mission of making a lot of stuff. They are 10-15% faster in typical production cycles and have a fanatical attention to detail when it comes to this kind of work. Take some time to nerd out with the thing (which is what Brother intends most customers will do), and you'll find dozens of tricks and levers you can pull to dial this thing in ways a Fanuc or Haas can't even imagine.

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  31. #39
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    I will say that m140x1 looks like an awesome machine. Very unique and opens up a lot of possibilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    I will say that m140x1 looks like an awesome machine. Very unique and opens up a lot of possibilities.
    Oh, the siren song of the M140X1...

    The X2 was better. The new M200/M300 machines look like Brother has stepped up everything across the board. I'm thinking next year is when I'm going to add an M300 for pretty amazing production flexibility.


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