ROI Brother S100 vs Haas DM-2 - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    I'm gonna go out on a limb and venture a guess that these machines cost some good coin

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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    I'm gonna go out on a limb and venture a guess that these machines cost some good coin
    More than I care to spend for a bt30.

    I did spend some serious coin on the last 6 dm2s though. Upwards of $85,000 each without the 4th or 5 axis units. Maybe I should have bought brothers.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    M140X2 national list price is $141,980 with some excellent year end clearance opportunities. This part was reduced from five ops to two, 40 minutes to 15. 316 SS . Roughed with hsm milling, finish turned od and turned OD thread (thread mill not allowed here). Thread milled the 3/4 NPT ports. Some angled work on the inside as well. Standard BT30 machine, not BBT.

    20181105_093035.jpg

    20181105_093044.jpg

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  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiamiCNC View Post
    Hi All,

    I am looking to buy my first 'real' VMC and am wondering what the opinions are on which machine would retain it's value more (% of new price). I am looking at keeping the machine for approximately 7 years, and it will be (very) gently used, mainly cutting aluminum. Haas DM-2 with 15k spindle, vs Brother S700 with 16k spindle. Similar options. Brother will cost me a little more, but may be worth it if the total cost of ownership is the same or better. I assume both Yamazen and Haas will have great support.

    Thanks
    That is a funny way to look at it, focusing on retained vslue. Right now Haas hold their value unbelievably well, but with them dropping support for machines that aren't that old, and Brothers seeming to break into the small shop market (unless that's just my biased PM observation), I wonder if that will change in seven years.

    Horses for courses and I don't know what you're making, but as a new Speedio owners I'm voting for the Brother. It's just an awesome machine.

    Not knocking Haas specifically here and this isn't relevant to the OP- Do swing arm toolchangers last for the millions of tool swaps you hear about Brothers and Robodrills running? Just seems like there is more to go wrong, but I don't have experience one way or the other.

  6. #45
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    That machine would reduce my current job I’m setting up on from 7 setups to 2. Well, I’d do the first op in the S1000 and then have the robot pass it to the m140. (Hey, if I’m dreaming I might as well dream big)

    I have several part families with unique threads that can’t “technically” be thread milled with a 3 axis. Ideally a 3+2, otherwise you have to angle the 4th to match the thread.

    So it’s interesting to see the turned thread, that’s one of the applications I would use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MiamiCNC View Post
    I should have mentioned that the reason I am looking at these two machines is that I have a low arched doorway, and these both fit. A VF will not fit unless I remove the ATC, which I would rather not deal with. Also, I have limited space, so I will have to limit myself to a single VMC.
    Hey Dan!
    Is there any possibility to enlarge the door? A VF1 is $10K cheaper than a DM1 so that leaves a fair bit of money to spend on changing the doorway If you have the option to do this it would absolutely be my first choice as it will give you a lot more flexibility.

    If you just need a decent VMC without the extreme speed and are willing to look at used machines then a Fadal VMC15 will fit through a 70x83" door (standard double door) with the left hand side of the enclosure removed which is an easy job.

    As someone else mentioned make sure to budget for tooling. Tooling up a VMC will cost at least $3,500 to fill the ATC with holders and buy a cheap vise, expect cost to go up quickly if you need things like a boring head, facemills, etc...

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    It's been mentioned above a little - but you might want to look at power requirements for the machines you are comparing. The Brother is good on a 30 amp 3-phase circuit. Even with the high-torque spindle.
    If you parts are the right size, You'd likely be better off with the Brother.
    Lots of guys posting on here are talking about their want, etc - but not posting about what meets your needs the best.
    Good luck, with whatever machine you choose!
    Yes, I only have 30 taper machines in my shop. Used to have only 40 taper. Zero regret.

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    I'm a little bit confused on the Speedio amperage claims, the brochure says the standard spindle has a max output of 18.9 kW momentary, and the high torque spindle can do 26.2kW momentary. 230v x 30A x 1.73pf = 11.93kW, so I don't see how the spindle could possibly put out more than that if it's limited to 30 amps. Even if the building has 3P4W 415Y power, it's not enough for the high torque spindle.

  11. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    The speedio s700x1 toolchange is 1.4 second chip to chip

    The Haas dm2 is 1.6 second chip to chip.

    Would take some 18,000 tool changes to save an hour of time. Thats a shitload of toolchanges



    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
    Chip to chip at what RPM on the HAAS? Run at 15k,16k and then change tools, and spin back up to 16k rpm.
    THEN count the seconds for chip to chip time.
    The Brother can go from 0 to 16k and back to 0 rpms in almost no time at all, it's actually insane to watch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    Chip to chip at what RPM on the HAAS? Run at 15k,16k and then change tools, and spin back up to 16k rpm.
    THEN count the seconds for chip to chip time.
    The Brother can go from 0 to 16k and back to 0 rpms in almost no time at all, it's actually insane to watch.
    So can the dm2

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    The Brother can also do a tool-change anywhere (X/Y), even while in motion. That the DM can not.
    And, the DM's acceleration, both motion and spindle is not in Brother territory.
    I am not for or against either. I would never buy the haas. But, that is not the machines fault. I actually like the DM.
    Almost Brother fast, yet 40-taper. I like it.
    That is not what this thread is about though.

    As for power requirements: My Brother (R650X1 w/16k spindle) is on #8 wire, and 20 amp slow-blow fuses. No issues.
    Last edited by wheelieking71; 12-05-2019 at 11:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    So can the dm2

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
    We have a DT1 and two brother r650x1s and the spindle 0-16K is instantaneous on the brothers. The dt1 not so much. The brochure tool change numbers do not tell the whole story. Build quality, reliability, accelerations, coolant pressure, and tapping speeds are much better on the brother. We have the midaco pallet changer on the DT1 that's a POS. Not haas' fault, but still a shit show.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generic Default View Post
    I'm a little bit confused on the Speedio amperage claims, the brochure says the standard spindle has a max output of 18.9 kW momentary, and the high torque spindle can do 26.2kW momentary. 230v x 30A x 1.73pf = 11.93kW, so I don't see how the spindle could possibly put out more than that if it's limited to 30 amps. Even if the building has 3P4W 415Y power, it's not enough for the high torque spindle.
    That's a good question. I think you hit it with 'output'. The machines are rated about 10KVA on the input side, which is about 25 to 30 amps at 220V ish. They have a regenerative power system that stores energy that is normally wasted in a heat dissipating resistive load when the spindle is decelerated. Perhaps the 26.2 kw momentary output is the combined available power of the regenerative system and the input power. It's always shocking to see a High Torque drill 1.5" in steel or cut tap 1"-8 in steel on a 30 amp breaker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    So can the dm2

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
    I just watched a video on the DM-2. It's impressive. While it still isn't in Brother territory, it's pretty damn quick and not too far off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    I just watched a video on the DM-2. It's impressive. While it still isn't in Brother territory, it's pretty damn quick and not too far off.
    It's not identical to a brother but thats yo be expected for the price. It's close though.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    I have spent a lot of hours looking at the brothers machine to me it came down to no local support in my state and the price ,,, From what I have seen the brothers is close to twice the price of a DM2 and yes I get that its a second or two faster on the tool changer. But I am happy to give up that second on changing the tool for what I can do with the tool. After reading about guys pulling the holder out of the spindle trying to tap 1/2-13 threads and all the busted pull studs and then were everyone is talking about how there on the hunt for the shortest tool holder all the time. I really see a HUGE disadvantage to the BT30 spindle for my parts.. Its clear to me that I can push a Cat40 tool way harder and easily make up the second lost on the tool change.

    I am placing a order today for a DM2 with a auger and HSM for just under 57K ... I looked at the offer I got a year ago on the S700 and when I add in the chip conveyor its at half the price.

    I think brothers have there place is super hi production shops that run small cutters and go 24/7 .. but for a shop like mine that does mostly runs of a couple thousand parts at a time, having a machine that can use any of the 200+ cat40 holders and tools I use on the larger VF machines makes a lot of sense.

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    Don't forget probing and automatic coolant refill.



    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Last time I looked the DM, the drawbar force was about 900 lbs. Like a MiniMill. No much higher than a 30 taper. Something to consider also, if rigidity is needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.D.Machine View Post
    I have spent a lot of hours looking at the brothers machine to me it came down to no local support in my state and the price ,,, From what I have seen the brothers is close to twice the price of a DM2 and yes I get that its a second or two faster on the tool changer. But I am happy to give up that second on changing the tool for what I can do with the tool. After reading about guys pulling the holder out of the spindle trying to tap 1/2-13 threads and all the busted pull studs and then were everyone is talking about how there on the hunt for the shortest tool holder all the time. I really see a HUGE disadvantage to the BT30 spindle for my parts.. Its clear to me that I can push a Cat40 tool way harder and easily make up the second lost on the tool change.

    I am placing a order today for a DM2 with a auger and HSM for just under 57K ... I looked at the offer I got a year ago on the S700 and when I add in the chip conveyor its at half the price.

    I think brothers have there place is super hi production shops that run small cutters and go 24/7 .. but for a shop like mine that does mostly runs of a couple thousand parts at a time, having a machine that can use any of the 200+ cat40 holders and tools I use on the larger VF machines makes a lot of sense.
    You've never owned a Brother machine. I can count on you posting the same stuff over and over every time this comes up. It's almost like DMF Tom, to be honest.
    You are talking about your stuff - as I posted above, why don't you put yourself in the OP's shoes, and think about what is best for him??????? This is important, like actually answering his request for help.
    Tell him that you had to have Haas take a machine back a few years ago?
    Brother 2X the price of the DM2? Post the actual numbers you are using with equivalent machines.

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  27. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.D.Machine View Post
    I have spent a lot of hours looking at the brothers machine to me it came down to no local support in my state and the price ,,, From what I have seen the brothers is close to twice the price of a DM2 and yes I get that its a second or two faster on the tool changer. But I am happy to give up that second on changing the tool for what I can do with the tool. After reading about guys pulling the holder out of the spindle trying to tap 1/2-13 threads and all the busted pull studs and then were everyone is talking about how there on the hunt for the shortest tool holder all the time. I really see a HUGE disadvantage to the BT30 spindle for my parts.. Its clear to me that I can push a Cat40 tool way harder and easily make up the second lost on the tool change.

    I am placing a order today for a DM2 with a auger and HSM for just under 57K ... I looked at the offer I got a year ago on the S700 and when I add in the chip conveyor its at half the price.

    I think brothers have there place is super hi production shops that run small cutters and go 24/7 .. but for a shop like mine that does mostly runs of a couple thousand parts at a time, having a machine that can use any of the 200+ cat40 holders and tools I use on the larger VF machines makes a lot of sense.
    It is absolutely imperative that you buy the best machine for your application.

    We do not know much about the original poster's parts, or requirements, other than that they are aluminum.

    I could make several examples of where parts I have run on my old 40 taper, or 40 tapers I have run at previous jobs, and how the Brother compares, but that really isn't the point. If I remember right from my previous threads, you do large amounts of material removal on larger parts. That isn't Brother's niche. You had issues that you couldn't get augers in a Brother. I've run machines with and without, and never had an issue either way. Augers ARE nice if you are making S loads of chips. Like hogging on a die shoe.

    But to say that Brother isn't good for low volume, or one off, is incorrect. And that is the part that I take issue with.

    I didn't turn on my Brother yesterday, I spent the day designing fixtures. It's after 1 here, I haven't had lunch, and I haven't turned my Brother on yet. I spent the morning turning blanks for some cutters that are for the job I mentioned earlier. If things go according to plan, I'll heat treat those tomorrow while I am starting to cut the fixtures that I worked on designing yesterday. Weeks of design, prototyping, testing, heck, I have over 12 hours of just programming the parts. That includes designing the special tools I have to make, to then make the part.

    All that leads up to production. Of 40 parts. 7 setups, 21 tools, a LOT of operations.

    Watching the Brother poke a hole, tool break detect, change tools, and be back into the cut in seconds is stunning. Do I need those seconds? No... not really. But the sooner I get the job off the machine, I can get onto the next job.

    The Brother gives me the comfort and security of knowing that if I go into the house to watch a movie with the kids, it'll be OK without me baby sitting it. I don't have to chase offsets to make sure that my parts hold tolerance.

    One of these days I'll hire gkoenig for a day to help me get my in process probing nailed down. I don't have the time or the available brain power to nerd out and get some of the truly incredible results that the Brother is capable of.

    You'd choke on your coffee if you knew my business's numbers. Suffice to say my Brother has been a money maker, as fast as I can keep it fed. If there is any downside to having a Brother. It can be a bit depressing. My old 40 taper was always running. I always had the next job designed, programmed, ready to run.

    My S1000 spends its time napping, waiting for me to feed it.

    My 1943 Monarch 10EE made my money today... every business is different.


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