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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROTHERFRANK View Post
    They have a regenerative power system that stores energy that is normally wasted in a heat dissipating resistive load when the spindle is decelerated. Perhaps the 26.2 kw momentary output is the combined available power of the regenerative system and the input power.
    Stores the energy? Please do tell more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    Stores the energy? Please do tell more.
    It is part of the spindle amplifier, I believe the energy from stopping the spindle may be captured in a bank of capacitors and reused when starting/running the spindle. The older machines had a bank of resistors up top with a fan that would just dissipate (waste) the energy of stopping the spindle as heat. I have seen other brands of machines that have something that looks like an electric stove element up top that accomplishes the same thing.

    20191205_105930.jpg

    20191205_105625.jpg

    Hybrid and electric cars do something similar. When you are decelerating or braking, they capture some of that energy back into the batteries instead of it being wasted as heat in the brake rotors and pads. That is one of my favorite features of my hybrid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Watching the Brother poke a hole, tool break detect, change tools, and be back into the cut in seconds is stunning. Do I need those seconds? No... not really. But the sooner I get the job off the machine, I can get onto the next job.
    Glad you said that. That is one aspect of speed that doesn't get elaborated enough. "Throughput" covers a broad spectrum of shop dynamics.
    Sometimes, when jobs are stacking up, that time adds up to just more than a few seconds here/there.
    These guys are counting tool change time, and adding seconds, saying its not really a big deal. And, it really isn't.
    Until you realize that, throughput in the Brother is roughly 30% minimum faster than a haas VFss, and probably at least 15% faster than a DM (total WAG).
    That is when the big picture becomes clear. And, when you have multiple customers all looking at your lead times like this it is a HUGE deal.

    No B.S. my Brother R650X1 makes almost exactly twice as many parts as my haas VF3ss with pallet-changer. Same parts. Same process. Same tools. Same exact feeds/speeds.
    Both machines have 99% spindle up time. The Brother makes 100% more parts. Uses 50% less power. And, takes up about 75% as much floor space.
    How could I go wrong?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    One of these days I'll hire gkoenig for a day to help me get my in process probing nailed down. I don't have the time or the available brain power to nerd out and get some of the truly incredible results that the Brother is capable of.
    Boy can I relate to that!

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  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    Glad you said that. That is one aspect of speed that doesn't get elaborated enough. "Throughput" covers a broad spectrum of shop dynamics.
    Sometimes, when jobs are stacking up, that time adds up to just more than a few seconds here/there.
    These guys are counting tool change time, and adding seconds, saying its not really a big deal. And, it really isn't.
    Until you realize that, throughput in the Brother is roughly 30% minimum faster than a haas VFss, and probably at least 15% faster than a DM (total WAG).
    That is when the big picture becomes clear. And, when you have multiple customers all looking at your lead times like this it is a HUGE deal.

    No B.S. my Brother R650X1 makes almost exactly twice as many parts as my haas VF3ss with pallet-changer. Same parts. Same process. Same tools. Same exact feeds/speeds.
    Both machines have 99% spindle up time. The Brother makes 100% more parts. Uses 50% less power. And, takes up about 75% as much floor space.
    How could I go wrong?!



    Boy can I relate to that!
    You can't go wrong as long as the machine payment gets paid.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROTHERFRANK View Post
    It is part of the spindle amplifier, I believe the energy from stopping the spindle may be captured in a bank of capacitors and reused when starting/running the spindle. The older machines had a bank of resistors up top with a fan that would just dissipate (waste) the energy of stopping the spindle as heat. I have seen other brands of machines that have something that looks like an electric stove element up top that accomplishes the same thing.

    20191205_105930.jpg

    20191205_105625.jpg

    Hybrid and electric cars do something similar. When you are decelerating or braking, they capture some of that energy back into the batteries instead of it being wasted as heat in the brake rotors and pads. That is one of my favorite features of my hybrid.
    Interesting. I was wondering how they stopped the spindle so fast. With no braking resistor.
    I climbed all over mine when it first landed. And, couldn't figure it out.

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    It's always the same 3 or 4 guys making a big deal of the tool changes and the rapids....it's well known they are fast for that and if that's what spins your motor good for you. I still don't see a mass sell off of all the other machine tool builder's machines to buy the brother machines. We all get it, they move fast...but they are still light duty machines with a weak bt30 spindle. There's a place for them, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROTHERFRANK View Post
    It is part of the spindle amplifier, I believe the energy from stopping the spindle may be captured in a bank of capacitors and reused when starting/running the spindle. The older machines had a bank of resistors up top with a fan that would just dissipate (waste) the energy of stopping the spindle as heat. I have seen other brands of machines that have something that looks like an electric stove element up top that accomplishes the same thing.

    20191205_105930.jpg

    20191205_105625.jpg

    Hybrid and electric cars do something similar. When you are decelerating or braking, they capture some of that energy back into the batteries instead of it being wasted as heat in the brake rotors and pads. That is one of my favorite features of my hybrid.
    I have heard of them sending it back into the grid but never storing it for the upcoming acceleration. I think this is more like what F1 does, short term, high burst storage. That is interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    It's always the same 3 or 4 guys making a big deal of the tool changes and the rapids....it's well known they are fast for that and if that's what spins your motor good for you. I still don't see a mass sell off of all the other machine tool builder's machines to buy the brother machines. We all get it, they move fast...but they are still light duty machines with a weak bt30 spindle. There's a place for them, of course.
    Again, it depends on what parts you are making. IIRC the OP's parts are not huge.
    I had a Haas VF2, A super Minimill, and a minimill 2, and a Robodrill. I did reprogram to use more HSM on the Brother- which is a $2500 option on the Haas machines. My cycle times using Brother machines are about 50 percent of what they were before.
    If you are using big cutters that need a big spindle, get a Mori. Or a Haas. Haas is running some specials these days,and they never used to do that unless Westec or IMTS. You can get support for a Haas most of the time. Some Haas dealers are better than others.
    OP - Hope you get a machine that makes you big bucks without frustration.
    Come back and tell about it when you are ready!

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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    It's always the same 3 or 4 guys making a big deal of the tool changes and the rapids....it's well known they are fast for that and if that's what spins your motor good for you. I still don't see a mass sell off of all the other machine tool builder's machines to buy the brother machines. We all get it, they move fast...but they are still light duty machines with a weak bt30 spindle. There's a place for them, of course.
    The main argument we have is at the end of the day it is hard to beat these type machines for throughput if you are doing any kind of production, and they are very energy and space efficient.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    The main argument we have is at the end of the day it is hard to beat these type machines for throughput if you are doing any kind of production, and they are very energy and space efficient.
    I think they are great little machines and are well equipped to make lots of parts...quickly. like I said the drilling and tapping is outstanding machine vs machine the brother is going to come out way ahead hands down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    It's always the same 3 or 4 guys making a big deal of the tool changes and the rapids....it's well known they are fast for that and if that's what spins your motor good for you. I still don't see a mass sell off of all the other machine tool builder's machines to buy the brother machines. We all get it, they move fast...but they are still light duty machines with a weak bt30 spindle. There's a place for them, of course.
    I'm not using mine lightly, I'm giving it all she's got.
    1/2" Destiny Diamondback, 1.23" deep, 16k rpm, .1" stepover at 300+ipm in 6061 aluminum.
    I used to run this exact same part on my Okuma Genos mills. and while that particular cut I was able to cut heavier, and also faster because of the Hi-CutPro is just that good,the Brother makes this part faster BECAUSE of the tool change times.
    There are roughly 20-25 tool changes and this cuts down minutes from my Genos.
    Granted our Brother is a pallet changer and does 6 parts in 24 minutes per pallet continuously whereas my Genos made 6 parts in 30 minutes.
    That's huge.
    So that's why people make a big deal of the tool changes.

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    That's because the okuma has to travel a mile at the slowest rapid possible for a new mill lol

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    That's because the okuma has to travel a mile at the slowest rapid possible for a new mill lol

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
    Yeah I wish the rapid was faster,but for the money, the Genos M560 is an absolute beast of a mill, we have 3 of them, along with an older Okuma mill, and a Hyundai-Kia mill.

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    I almost bought a few of them, even considered the hmc but settled on a mess of robodrills instead.

    The finish on the okuma is nuts.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    It's always the same 3 or 4 guys making a big deal of the tool changes and the rapids....it's well known they are fast for that and if that's what spins your motor good for you. I still don't see a mass sell off of all the other machine tool builder's machines to buy the brother machines. We all get it, they move fast...but they are still light duty machines with a weak bt30 spindle. There's a place for them, of course.
    The place is broader than you think. They make the same amount if not more VMC's than Haas on the average month over the last 4-5 years. There are north of 170,000 Brothers making parts today. And all of those are VMC's. Fanuc is much bigger.

    Haas success (which is great and deserved) has influenced the market perception here in the US. There are a great deal of Brother users who never read the PM stuff or participate here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    I still don't see a mass sell off of all the other machine tool builder's machines to buy the brother machines.
    Brother sells more machine tools per year than Haas does (about 14k Speedios a year). Fanuc sells about 26k Robodrills a year. Worldwide, BT30 is more popular than CAT40 by a mile, and probably the single most popular VMC spindle out there.

    There are a great deal of Brother users who never read the PM stuff or participate here.
    The number of BT30 machinists is low, relative to the number of machines there are out there. Production shops don't just buy one machine, they buy them by the truckload. Haas is probably more like an overall operator:machine ratio of 1:2. I'm guessing Speedios and Robodrills are more like 1:10. Those shops in China with 500 spindles making iPhones often have 10 people who know what is going on, and 600 people loading parts and pushing buttons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    Makes sense!

    Running some long tools in the robodrills is always sketchy. I'm sure it's just as sketchy in a brother.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
    ACI Industries, LLC on Instagram: “I have taken to calling this @secotools high feed mill "The Angry Goose." Sounds like a male Canada Goose comin' at you when you get to…”

    Fast machines and high feed mills! LOL I would not have done that if I had other options but it actually worked really really well. That is at my old day job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    ACI Industries, LLC on Instagram: “I have taken to calling this @secotools high feed mill "The Angry Goose." Sounds like a male Canada Goose comin' at you when you get to…”

    Fast machines and high feed mills! LOL I would not have done that if I had other options but it actually worked really really well. That is at my old day job.
    Much too dangerous for my tastes. then again I don't like paying for spindles.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Brother sells more machine tools per year than Haas does (about 14k Speedios a year). Fanuc sells about 26k Robodrills a year. Worldwide, BT30 is more popular than CAT40 by a mile, and probably the single most popular VMC spindle out there.



    The number of BT30 machinists is low, relative to the number of machines there are out there. Production shops don't just buy one machine, they buy them by the truckload. Haas is probably more like an overall operator:machine ratio of 1:2. I'm guessing Speedios and Robodrills are more like 1:10. Those shops in China with 500 spindles making iPhones often have 10 people who know what is going on, and 600 people loading parts and pushing buttons.
    Are we including sewing machines too? Sorry couldn't help it...

    The bulk of those machines are going to mass production places that run hundreds of machines with one part. The amount of moris and Haas and others are going to production facilities that run all kinds of parts with all kinds of tools. Your average job shop isn't going to buy a brother, where I work isn't going to buy a brother.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    Are we including sewing machines too? Sorry couldn't help it...

    The bulk of those machines are going to mass production places that run hundreds of machines with one part. The amount of moris and Haas and others are going to production facilities that run all kinds of parts with all kinds of tools. Your average job shop isn't going to buy a brother, where I work isn't going to buy a brother.
    The majority of the shops we sell to on the West Coast are job shops. Some that have answered questions on this thread. Many of these shops have decades of experience and choose to make part with 30 taper spindles after having numerous VMC's and HMC's with 40 taper. Most have a mix of machines. Much like you don't put 1" diameter parts on your 12 inch chuck lathe, not all mills fit for all parts. Buying a Brother is a choice made by some very successful people making a variety of parts.

    If I met you in your lobby, my first question would be; " What percentage of your milling work parts can I hold in my hand?". That is usually what starts the conversation because if the part fits in my hand, most likely, I can help make you more money.


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