ROI Brother S100 vs Haas DM-2 - Page 8
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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiamiCNC View Post
    Hi All-- This is the OP. First off i'd like to say WOW, I wasn't expecting such a vigorous response! I appreciate all those who took time to respond. This information was very valuable to me. One thing is crystal clear: machinist are passionate about what they do and their equipment.

    I've made a decision, and here is why.

    Price -- Both Haas and Yamazen have aggressive year end pricing... I got lucky with my timing. When I compare apples to apples (CTS, probing, HSM, MPG) and adjust pricing for installation and app training, there isn't much of a difference in price between the DM-2 and S700X1. Brother is also including preventative maintenance and Lyndex-Nikken tooling. When I factor these in, there was only a 3% difference in price. So, price didn't end up being a factor. My initial posts asked about the ROI. What I really meant is total cost of ownership. However, I will most likely be holding onto whatever machine for quite a while, so in the end it will probably be a wash.

    Taper -- I thought hard about how I would be using this machine and ended up concluding that a 30 taper would not significantly limit me. Initially I won't push as hard with a 30 taper, but no doubt after I become more comfortable with the machine, I'm sure I will test it's limits. And since i will be using HSM, the extra 1k in RPM will probably make up for any differences.

    Distributor relations - I got a sense from the posts that Haas HFO are hit or miss, whereas Yamazen is more consistent in their support. I have no idea how my local HFO is. They might be great. However, I can say that I took the 1.5 hour drive to my local Yamazen dealer and was very impressed with everyone I met. I definitely feel like I will be getting good support. I may have felt the same way about the HFO, but they are 4 hours away and I haven't had the time.

    Finally - The Yamazen dealer has a great microbrewery next door.

    So S700X1 it is. BTW- Yamazen is offering more aggressive discounts on the S1000 right now, in case anyone is interested.
    Um...1k rpm is not going to remotely make up the difference between a bt30 and CAT40 machine, no matter how much rice, soy sauce, and saki you feed it. And if you try to see for yourself, have an extra spindle on hand.

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  3. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    Um...1k rpm is not going to remotely make up the difference between a bt30 and CAT40 machine, no matter how much rice, soy sauce, and saki you feed it. And if you try to see for yourself, have an extra spindle on hand.
    Further more....why do all brother owners make the probe stand out of aluminum? I guess chasing Inconsistent z heights is a hobby for them?



    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    Further more....why do all brother owners make the probe stand out of aluminum? I guess chasing Inconsistent z heights is a hobby for them?

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
    Guess maybe you should stick to your very special aerospace stuff that no Brother owner is qualified to make.

    I set all the tools at once, never had an issue. Once in a great while I do make a small adjustment, but I've never ever had to chase anything. Small adjustments once in a while are part of the business.

    BTW - have you ever owned or run a Brother machine? Some of us made a step up from Haas. When I was in and out of the hospital last year with chemo and stem cell transplant, I could only work about half time. I was able to get as much work out as I had when I owned Haas and Robodrill, and worked full time. Brother owners are saying cycle times are lower than the machines we had before. That means something to some of us.

    ETA: too bad I don't have John Weldon's way with words. I'd come up with some jewels here if I did. I wonder how many on this forum are different in real life?

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  6. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    Further more....why do all brother owners make the probe stand out of aluminum? I guess chasing Inconsistent z heights is a hobby for them?

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
    The factory Blum mount is aluminum, figure it will work for me.

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  8. #145
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    This company is interesting:

    screenshot_20191207-170041_chrome.jpg

    They came to our open house and said they were in the market for twelve Brother type machines. They said they heard the yellow machines were the ones to get but they also heard the Brother machines were the ones they should go for. They had a requirement to hold a few tenths in Z and said what they would do would be order one of each and put them to the test. Within a few weeks of testing they went ahead with the Brothers.

  9. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROTHERFRANK View Post
    That gets the probe out of the way. You can also do something like this using those 6mm holes:

    Attachment 271936
    Ya, yours is cleaner. I like it.

  10. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wsurfer View Post
    Ya, yours is cleaner. I like it.
    If you make one you better make it out of Japanese steel, LOL!


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    Not to add to the battle, but has anybody made the switch from Brother to Haas? To get more done with that big taper? A bunch of of dedicated Haas to Brother users here, but nobody seems to go the other way.

    Wheelieking had said his tool life went down with BT30, but still says he's making more parts.

  12. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by LOTT View Post
    Not to add to the battle, but has anybody made the switch from Brother to Haas? To get more done with that big taper? A bunch of of dedicated Haas to Brother users here, but nobody seems to go the other way.

    Wheelieking had said his tool life went down with BT30, but still says he's making more parts.
    If I recall tool life dropped by like 90% and so did the part finish .

    one thing that is not getting looked at is the Haas machine there replacing ... I have seen a lot of guys start off with a "OLD" vf or mini mill and then sell off there "OLD" mill for like 20 or 30K and buy a new brothers mills for 100K then claim that the brothers machine is twice as fast ,,, SHOCKING that when you spend twice as much money or more and go from a 6k spindle to a 16K spindle that the machine is faster ....

    You brought up weelieking ... he was building parts on a older vf3 with a pallet system and went and got a new brothers mill with a faster spindle and spent about 160K if I remember right and put his old VF3 up for sale at 39K ... so he upgraded to a machine valued at 4 times the cost and got double the production on his small parts .

    Brothers has there place on small parts and small cutter ,,, there not a heavy duty machine with a a lot of power ,, There a light weight machine made to take light cuts FAST ....
    I run Haas in my shop do to the simple fast that yes a brothers could make 50% of my parts faster than my vf2ss mills can but a lot of the parts I do would be slower on a brothers do to the lower power, lower rigidity, and machine size..

    I like that I can run a 4" face mill or push a 3/4" endmill with out having to stop and think about is the pull stud going to snap. my go to tool for roughing alum is the 1/2" TAZ mills from lakeshore ... on production parts I program them to run about 10,500 RPM and push the feed tell I "SNAP" a cutter then back it off 20% and run the ever living hell out of them ,,, most of the time on roughing parts the mill is at about 120% spindle load ..

    Brothers has there place in small parts production but plain and simple the BT30 is not a universal machine .. Its better at small parts using small cutters than cat40 but when the parts get bigger or the cutters get bigger it just well not hold up like the cat40 well ...

    I have never once thought I would snap a pullstud on a cat40 machine ,, I have stalled a lot of spindles and snapped a lot of cutter in 37 years but I have never snapped a pull stud ..

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  14. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.D.Machine View Post
    If I recall tool life dropped by like 90% and so did the part finish .

    one thing that is not getting looked at is the Haas machine there replacing ... I have seen a lot of guys start off with a "OLD" vf or mini mill and then sell off there "OLD" mill for like 20 or 30K and buy a new brothers mills for 100K then claim that the brothers machine is twice as fast ,,, SHOCKING that when you spend twice as much money or more and go from a 6k spindle to a 16K spindle that the machine is faster ....

    You brought up weelieking ... he was building parts on a older vf3 with a pallet system and went and got a new brothers mill with a faster spindle and spent about 160K if I remember right and put his old VF3 up for sale at 39K ... so he upgraded to a machine valued at 4 times the cost and got double the production on his small parts .

    Brothers has there place on small parts and small cutter ,,, there not a heavy duty machine with a a lot of power ,, There a light weight machine made to take light cuts FAST ....
    I run Haas in my shop do to the simple fast that yes a brothers could make 50% of my parts faster than my vf2ss mills can but a lot of the parts I do would be slower on a brothers do to the lower power, lower rigidity, and machine size..

    I like that I can run a 4" face mill or push a 3/4" endmill with out having to stop and think about is the pull stud going to snap. my go to tool for roughing alum is the 1/2" TAZ mills from lakeshore ... on production parts I program them to run about 10,500 RPM and push the feed tell I "SNAP" a cutter then back it off 20% and run the ever living hell out of them ,,, most of the time on roughing parts the mill is at about 120% spindle load ..

    Brothers has there place in small parts production but plain and simple the BT30 is not a universal machine .. Its better at small parts using small cutters than cat40 but when the parts get bigger or the cutters get bigger it just well not hold up like the cat40 well ...

    I have never once thought I would snap a pullstud on a cat40 machine ,, I have stalled a lot of spindles and snapped a lot of cutter in 37 years but I have never snapped a pull stud ..
    Dude, give it up.
    Same old, same old.
    You never owned a Brother, and if I worked for them I wouldn't sell you one. Frank and Andy like a challenge, so they'll talk to you. You act like the Brother owners are stupid and don't have a clue about things. Did you even think about that when you posted that stuff?
    Clue: what is the limitation? Time and $$$, right. No problem to spend a little money and get more time to make more money. IMHO that's a good thing. Might even be a good thing to make an investment, tax-wise.
    YMMV.....

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  16. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.D.Machine View Post
    I like that I can run a 4" face mill or push a 3/4" endmill with out having to stop and think about is the pull stud going to snap. my go to tool for roughing alum is the 1/2" TAZ mills from lakeshore ... on production parts I program them to run about 10,500 RPM and push the feed tell I "SNAP" a cutter then back it off 20% and run the ever living hell out of them ,,, most of the time on roughing parts the mill is at about 120% spindle load ..
    Yes, the very best way to dial in feeds/speeds on a new part is to take a $63.74 cutter, crank everything up until that tool snaps, then dial everything back 20% and use a fresh chunk of carbide.

    Please tell me more about how to run a machine shop...

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  18. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglemike View Post
    Dude, give it up.
    Same old, same old.
    You never owned a Brother, and if I worked for them I wouldn't sell you one. Frank and Andy like a challenge, so they'll talk to you. You act like the Brother owners are stupid and don't have a clue about things. Did you even think about that when you posted that stuff?
    Clue: what is the limitation? Time and $$$, right. No problem to spend a little money and get more time to make more money. IMHO that's a good thing. Might even be a good thing to make an investment, tax-wise.
    YMMV.....
    How about you give it up?

    You are exactly the same, except different side of the fence...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Yes, the very best way to dial in feeds/speeds on a new part is to take a $63.74 cutter, crank everything up until that tool snaps, then dial everything back 20% and use a fresh chunk of carbide.

    Please tell me more about how to run a machine shop...
    Well according to some, that is exactly how you do it... not my choice, but for some...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    How about you give it up?

    You are exactly the same, except different side of the fence...
    do you see me trashing Haas machines and putting down their owners? Every freaking thread when this comes up? You really can't see the difference? He's a freaking broken record.
    I post my experience. I don't trash other peoples stuff. I might have posted about my experiences about my machines, and my HFO.
    Plus, he posts negative about Brother, and he's never owned one. He's like the expert on a motorcycle that reads spec's but doesn't ride.

    ETA: I actually looked at the OP's needs and description of his work. I made remarks about that too. I added my experience as I see a fair bit of similarity to the OP. If he was hogging a lot of steel, or any nasty application that needed a stouter machine, I would NOT be suggesting a Brother to him. No point in giving bad advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.D.Machine View Post

    one thing that is not getting looked at is the Haas machine there replacing ... I have seen a lot of guys start off with a "OLD" vf or mini mill and then sell off there "OLD" mill for like 20 or 30K and buy a new brothers mills for 100K then claim that the brothers machine is twice as fast ,,,
    You could have a valid point on some guys experience, but your numbers are off. I just bought an S500, similar work envelope to a VF-1 (we make small parts). With a 10k spindle and SMTC the VF-1 would have cost MORE. I haven't run a new VF-1, but have looked at one in a friend's shop, and I'm very happy with the lower cost Brother.

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    Funny, I mentioned this in another thread, I’ve broken 3 pull studs in a Cat 40, thankfully that hasn’t happened in my Brother.

    I should compile all my previous posts into a canned response

    I would love if some of you guys posted your ROI tracking. I’ve never bothered because my work spans several pieces of equipment, and is rarely done on one machine. Job shop and tool & die work is quite a bit harder to associate specific dollar amounts to specific machines.

    I do have machines, like my Moore and my Brown & Sharp and my Abrasive that have outright paid for themselves with one job, but it’s harder for me to track. Some of you guys that do contract work should be able to easily state ROI.

    My wife always makes the joke that men love to brag about how big it is. Could be trucks, who is best, machines, doesn’t matter the topic. . . Her response, regardless what the topic is, whip it out boys and let’s measure. Boys always want to talk about it, but never actually measure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Funny, I mentioned this in another thread, I’ve broken 3 pull studs in a Cat 40, thankfully that hasn’t happened in my Brother.

    I should compile all my previous posts into a canned response

    I would love if some of you guys posted your ROI tracking. I’ve never bothered because my work spans several pieces of equipment, and is rarely done on one machine. Job shop and tool & die work is quite a bit harder to associate specific dollar amounts to specific machines.

    I do have machines, like my Moore and my Brown & Sharp and my Abrasive that have outright paid for themselves with one job, but it’s harder for me to track. Some of you guys that do contract work should be able to easily state ROI.

    My wife always makes the joke that men love to brag about how big it is. Could be trucks, who is best, machines, doesn’t matter the topic. . . Her response, regardless what the topic is, whip it out boys and let’s measure. Boys always want to talk about it, but never actually measure.
    To be fair I have no way to calculate mine, most of our jobs are internal, and when we do make stuff for the customer its priced ridiculously.

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    Overwhelmingly I hear that tool life is much better on Brother machines. Correct tools and tool paths. The spindle quality, motion control and overall design plays in I am sure. Wheelie (one person) had one tool that didn't live as long and it was getting buried in a corner and I am pretty certain chattering, possibly at a barely audible level. The cutter and tool path weren't optimized for his machine. Maybe he can comment about how the rest of the tools did? If you think about it, Brother machines are frequently used in 24/7 type applications holding tight tolerances (Toyota. Honda, Domestics, Apple...), often robot tended. If tool life wasn't good, they wouldn't be in there. I have a client that makes beautiful high end gun parts all of various tool steels. He reluctantly tried out a Brother at his son's urging. Within a couple of years they replaced all of their vmcs with Brother, save one, for this cutter:

    20180621_130246.jpg

    I felt that the High Torque Big Plus machines would do a great job with it. We did a test for them. Like my funky custom saw arbor? The Iscar adapter had a one week lead time. Cut sounded more solid with better tool life and finish than their 4 year old red 40 taper in top condition. .120" wide slot, .500" deep, one pass in tool steel. Basically all you could hear was coolant splashing and chips hitting the sheetmetal. It was even better than I was thinking it would be. Now they are all Brother vmc shop with a R650 High Torque cranking these parts out every day. Dad and son are very happy.

    For a vast majority of shops that have work that fits in your hand, or a shoe or pizza box I say, the Brother machines can be a great solution. Yamazen has a 34 year track record supporting these machines. Your local representative has access to resources to help their clients get the most from these machines or steer them in another direction if it is not the right fit.
    Last edited by BROTHERFRANK; 12-08-2019 at 05:14 PM.

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    Sorry Brotherfrank but I wanna see more pictures of those Hermles in that shop...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    Sorry Brotherfrank but I wanna see more pictures of those Hermles in that shop...
    OK, but then I'd have to kill you! JK. you have a good eye


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