Round 3. Of the internet helps me buy a lathe. The final showdown.

Hello All.

There is hope on the horizon. Soon, no longer will I bother you with my weird questions and even worse follow ups. I have been, with you help, looking at various machines and what started with me trying to buy a Doosan has ended with frantic phone calls from everyone and their mother trying to sell me anything from Haas all the way to DMG Mori.

As such. Please take a look at the final contenders and chime with your opinions.

Also, in advance, thank you so much for your help.

Machine 1.
Takisawa ts4000 ys.
The most expensive, but has two spindles. Comes with 4 live tools and enough stuff to fill the turret. Also has the little thing that converts automatically the second spindle into a live stop. Parts catcher and most control options are standard.

Machine 2
Mazak. 250my 20. 10k chepaer than the takisawa. Less capacity and no second spindle. Also 4 live tools and enough static.

Machine 3.
Okuma genos L300E MY. Has longer Z capacity, comes with a tooling cert. BMT turret, parts catcher and a Hardinge Flex C collet nose. No second spindle but about 15k cheaper than the takisawa. Ibid on the tools. Helical and off center included,

Machine 4.
Okuma LB 3000 big bore. Not certain of the options as there is no quote yet but somewhere near the takisawa as far as numbers. Similar capacity to Takisawa but no second spindle.

So far I am leaning towards the Takisawa or the Okuma. I like the capacity of one and the control of the other. We work in CAM so the control is not as important just a bonus. The second spindle is also a nice feature. Both Yamazen and Gosinger seem like nice people as far as service.




What do you guys think?

Thank you.

I think you should buy the Takisawa.

2outof3 said:

I think you should buy the Takisawa.

Click to expand...

You are probably right.

plutoniumsalmon said:

Hello All.

There is hope on the horizon. Soon, no longer will I bother you with my weird questions and even worse follow ups. I have been, with you help, looking at various machines and what started with me trying to buy a Doosan has ended with frantic phone calls from everyone and their mother trying to sell me anything from Haas all the way to DMG Mori.

As such. Please take a look at the final contenders and chime with your opinions.

Also, in advance, thank you so much for your help.

Machine 1.
Takisawa ts4000 ys.
The most expensive, but has two spindles. Comes with 4 live tools and enough stuff to fill the turret. Also has the little thing that converts automatically the second spindle into a live stop. Parts catcher and most control options are standard.

Machine 2
Mazak. 250my 20. 10k chepaer than the takisawa. Less capacity and no second spindle. Also 4 live tools and enough static.

Machine 3.
Okuma genos L300E MY. Has longer Z capacity, comes with a tooling cert. BMT turret, parts catcher and a Hardinge Flex C collet nose. No second spindle but about 15k cheaper than the takisawa. Ibid on the tools. Helical and off center included,

Machine 4.
Okuma LB 3000 big bore. Not certain of the options as there is no quote yet but somewhere near the takisawa as far as numbers. Similar capacity to Takisawa but no second spindle.

So far I am leaning towards the Takisawa or the Okuma. I like the capacity of one and the control of the other. We work in CAM so the control is not as important just a bonus. The second spindle is also a nice feature. Both Yamazen and Gosinger seem like nice people as far as service.




What do you guys think?

Thank you.

Click to expand...

You pretty much answered your own question or framed it that the Takisawa is the one you like... :-)

But a couple of things caught my eye were "Big Bore" on the LB3000 (EX) and "Genos L300 E MY"... "Longer Z capacity". BTW the LB3000 EX II has a longer bed version as well.

So if you have parts that are too long or too larger diameter will you farm those out? Does the extra length and swing/maximum recommended diameter make a difference to your work or save you $ by being able to create those parts in-house?

Mazak has QTU 250 MSY (dual spindle) for about $160K ish... (with Nexus 2 control).


Also interested what turned you off about DMG mori ? :-)

Cheers

Eric

plutoniumsalmon said:

You are probably right.

Click to expand...

Easy for me to say. I work with all those nice guys from Yamazen. We would love to add you to our customer base.


Andy Dukes
Vice President West Group
Yamazen Inc.

Takasawa, sub spindles will pay that 15k back in no time,

cameraman said:

Also interested what turned you off about DMG mori ? :-)

Click to expand...

Hello. Up until 2 minutes ago I did not get any figures from them, though I asked. Now the ecoturn 510 came back with numbers and the price is a little high.

In suitable parts, absolutely.

pcasanova said:

Takasawa, sub spindles will pay that 15k back in no time,

Click to expand...

plutoniumsalmon said:

Hello. Up until 2 minutes ago I did not get any figures from them, though I asked. Now the ecoturn 510 came back with numbers and the price is a little high.

Click to expand...

I was thinking more of a NLX2500... than an eco anything perhaps...

So in terms of mental imagery where I would expect to find such machines....

The Takisawa I would expect to see being used in a high production environment such as the automotive industry.

The Okuma LB3000 EX models I would expect to see in moderate to serious production in the Aerospace markets (solid all rounder).

Something Like a Mazak QTU MSY I would expect to see making medical parts and the like not necessarily super heavy production.

It seems precision/accuracy is not such an issue for you (I think you mentioned earlier) so it is not mandatory for you to explore Hardinge, DMG mori or some more of the obscure Japanese high precision turning centers.


I think the OSP control will be more user friendly/capable than a "bog standard" Fanuc but the Fanuc will be totally reliable and completely "bomb proof"...

The Takisawa should last you guys practically for ever; If it were me I would make the choice based on WHO I wanted to work with in my/your local area (given that absolute long term precision is not an issue). Given that this is your first multi axis multi spindle machine I would "Partner" with whoever seems to have the greatest patience (and resources) for your learning curve and also understands your need to get stuff done... to work with folks that are genuinely going to help you "thrive" rather than let you sink or swim (by your own devices) after the instal... (having thrown yourself in the deep end). In the end its going to be about what is it going to take for you to become completely fluent with the machine you have invested in. I would say that is probably (in your case, perhaps) going to be the biggest factor. Who rather than what (machine).

cameraman said:

I was thinking more of a NLX2500... than an eco anything perhaps...

So in terms of mental imagery where I would expect to find such machines....

The Takisawa I would expect to see being used in a high production environment such as the automotive industry.

The Okuma LB3000 EX models I would expect to see in moderate to serious production in the Aerospace markets (solid all rounder).

Something Like a Mazak QTU MSY I would expect to see making medical parts and the like not necessarily super heavy production.

It seems precision/accuracy is not such an issue for you (I think you mentioned earlier) so it is not mandatory for you to explore Hardinge, DMG mori or some more of the obscure Japanese high precision turning centers.


I think the OSP control will be more user friendly/capable than a "bog standard" Fanuc but the Fanuc will be totally reliable and completely "bomb proof"...

The Takisawa should last you guys practically for ever; If it were me I would make the choice based on WHO I wanted to work with in my/your local area (given that absolute long term precision is not an issue). Given that this is your first multi axis multi spindle machine I would "Partner" with whoever seems to have the greatest patience (and resources) for your learning curve and also understands your need to get stuff done... to work with folks that are genuinely going to help you "thrive" rather than let you sink or swim (by your own devices) after the instal... (having thrown yourself in the deep end). In the end its going to be about what is it going to take for you to become completely fluent with the machine you have invested in. I would say that is probably (in your case, perhaps) going to be the biggest factor. Who rather than what (machine).

Click to expand...

I think you nailed it. Thank you. Already started asking about service and so on.

salmon - The problem with this post, is that you have no apples-to-apples comparisons between machines. As far as I can tell, you have only one sub-spindle machine, a general-purpose compromise machine (Mazak) a nice all-rounder job-shop machine, (Okuma Genos) and an all-out brute (Okuma LB3000).

So, what is important to you? AND - are you only limited to these (4) choices? I would suggest getting revised quotes to try and even the playing field, and also consider what's important for you.

As far as ease of programming - nothing will touch Mazatrol for simple turning. If you get the IGF option on the Okuma, it will come darn close. Fanuc has Manual-Guide-i, but I would not bet on learning that nearly easily as the other two conversational systems. And also, if you're going the G-code route, the Okuma will have a bit more of a learning curve as you adjust to their modified programming language. If you like the machine though, I wouldn't worry much about it - I'm sure Gosiger will give ample support to bring you up to speed...

Some random thoughts on the machines, regardless of options...

Mazak - Has Mazatrol. Will have very fast spindle acc/dec, and will hold a good, consistent turning tolerance. Terrible tailstock. There is only an eccentric-ring for minor taper adjustments, and a good-hard crash can move the tailstock casting as it mounts to the linear-bearing trucks, and requires a lot of sheet metal removal to straighten it up... Service may be iffy. Apps support is decent - their service has improved some over the past few years, but you definitely want to check with some local shops to get a feel for service. Also, I was at their factory last month - it was absolutely packed FULL TO THE GILLS with new machines - expect them to be priced higher than anyone else right now... And was your machine quoted with the "Smart" control, or the "Nexus" control? The "Smart" machines come with Bolt-On live tools, whereas the "Nexus" machines still come with VDI...

Okuma's - Amazing fit & finish on these machines. Best control on the market? It's awesome. Having the Windows in the background is awesome, as program file-transfer is simply click-n'-drop. Check into some of the "App's" that people are putting onto their OSP controls - it really creates a lot of opportunity for setup sheets/photos etc, to make running repeat jobs easier. The control is also super-user friendly, and the touch-screen will spoil you. Accuracy on these machines will be just as good as the Mazak. .0005" or better all day long, no problem. And the spindle on the LB-series - if it's Okuma's classic 2-speed winding motor, which I suspect it probably is - will be stupid powerful. I don't care what the specs say, there is no-one else's spindle that compares to theirs. It's awesome to take a cut in tool-steel 1/2" deep, hear the "rocks" bouncing off the glass, and the machine itself is still quiet as a mouse... I would trust that the Genos machine would be of similar quality, just understand that you're buying yesterday's iron-tech, so it's going to be a slower machine. Still probably a long-time workhorse, but not in the same league as the LB. Has ALL of the manuals loaded on the machine, AND when an alarm is generated, pressing the far-left ? soft-key opens the manual to the applicable alarm description, with possible fix's... And if you plan to use any macro-programming, Okuma's User-Task-2 format is far better than Custom-Macro-B...

Takisawa - I have no direct experience with Takisawa, but I'll caution you about the Fanuc control options. Make sure you know which options are included before you cut the check. On the Iron itself, I would expect it to perform just as well as the other machines. I would imagine that Yamazen will support this machine well, but I would put their apps guys to the test to see how well they know these machines. (No offense Andy - just due diligence. ) What you want is the classic Yamazen/Brother, or the Gosiger/Okuma marriage. Just make sure that the Yamazen/Takisawa marriage is as good. It might be, but the worst time to find out is once the machine is paid-for/out of warranty, and you need support.

Once you get the priorities & options settled, then it's time to go with your gut... Like Cameraman advised above - who you buy from needs to be a partner, not just someone selling a machine to make a buck.

+1 to what Jashley73 said
holy moly that's an awesome post, BTW


I've had really great sales support 7+ years ago from Gosiger in OP's area.
I believe it was an application engineer trying his hand at sales.

asked him how to make a feature i was struggling with. He nailed it so good i used his suggestion verbatim. How often can you get that from sales????

also Gosiger has been pretty good supporting my year 2000 Macturn30. Applications were struggling answering a tough question on an older machine and didn't charge me for an AE's visit. People that were great with that machine back in the day are all long gone.

Jashley73 said:

salmon - The problem with this post, is that you have no apples-to-apples \

Click to expand...

Hello and Thank you.

Yes that is a problem and the reason for it is rather complicated. We are not a typical job shop. In fact we are in many ways backward. Unlike a regular shop that has fixed jobs and specialties and as such has specific machine requirments, we cater to people who have not found anyone to work with. Either the parts are difficult and low in volume, complex, or constrained by something else. What we do is primarily work of an artistic nature. What we like to do is jobs no one else will do because thats where we were when we got started with our personal work. I am for example, a furniture designer and fabricator, my partner makes and designs Assistant Camera accessories. For example our two upcoming jobs are a modular furniture system and prototyping race car simulator controls. As such we never know what will come through the door. All we know is that we need a lathe with as much capacity as possible and a y axis (will need it for modular furniture parts. That is why the machines are so varied. What we need is the center of the Venn diagram. And that is why I asked your guys for help.

I am, in a way, trying to distill fact from the vapor of nuance. If someone responds with the fact that an okuma has a great control then it moves towards the center. If someone else does not like the Mazak tailstock then it moves out and so on. You guys have have way more experience then we will ever do, you run your machines 24/7 in most cases as such what I am trying to determine is how happy you are when you get to the shop in the morning with the choice that you made.

Anyways. Thank you so much for the description of the machines and the sage advice. I will take all of this into consideration and refine the diagram.

plutoniumsalmon said:

Hello and Thank you.

I am for example, a furniture designer and fabricator, my partner makes and designs Assistant Camera accessories. For example our two upcoming jobs are a modular furniture system and prototyping race car simulator controls. As such we never know what will come through the door. All we know is that we need a lathe with as much capacity as possible and a y axis (will need it for modular furniture parts. That is why the machines are so varied. What we need is the center of the Venn diagram. And that is why I asked your guys for help.

.

Click to expand...

sounds like a 3 axis router with an add-on 4 axis rotary could be another and much cheaper possibility.
wonder if any routers could do some simple turning?

edit: cameraman made some good points below.
i'm also thinking a high end live tool Y axis lathe is not what you need.
even a ratty used 2 axis lathe and a beat up 4axis mill will give you more capability where mere-mortals are running the equipment.
you can prolly put this together for WELL UNDER 100k.

plutoniumsalmon said:

Hello and Thank you.

Yes that is a problem and the reason for it is rather complicated. We are not a typical job shop. In fact we are in many ways backward. Unlike a regular shop that has fixed jobs and specialties and as such has specific machine requirments, we cater to people who have not found anyone to work with. Either the parts are difficult and low in volume, complex, or constrained by something else. What we do is primarily work of an artistic nature. What we like to do is jobs no one else will do because thats where we were when we got started with our personal work. I am for example, a furniture designer and fabricator, my partner makes and designs Assistant Camera accessories. For example our two upcoming jobs are a modular furniture system and prototyping race car simulator controls. As such we never know what will come through the door. All we know is that we need a lathe with as much capacity as possible and a y axis (will need it for modular furniture parts. That is why the machines are so varied. What we need is the center of the Venn diagram. And that is why I asked your guys for help.

I am, in a way, trying to distill fact from the vapor of nuance. If someone responds with the fact that an okuma has a great control then it moves towards the center. If someone else does not like the Mazak tailstock then it moves out and so on. You guys have have way more experience then we will ever do, you run your machines 24/7 in most cases as such what I am trying to determine is how happy you are when you get to the shop in the morning with the choice that you made.

Anyways. Thank you so much for the description of the machines and the sage advice. I will take all of this into consideration and refine the diagram.

Click to expand...

OK ... I grew up in the film business (my father was a production designer on several "Hollywood" blockbusters etc) and I have worked with architectural firms in L.A. in the past, obviously I work designing cameras and 3d rendering systems and also in cinematics etc. etc etc. blah blah blah.. Basically I have a "feel" for the random nature of what may come through your door and what your clients need from you guys... Sounds quite similar to a props department in the film business or work for theme parks (like Disney).

I would say if you really really really want the dreaded Y axis on your lathe and you want to be as useful as possible and all encompassing to your clients and high precision and accuracy is not an issue then if it were me I would not have a lathe that was less than 40" between centers preferably 50". Some of the smaller lathes tend to specialize in delivering higher tolerances, but in your case it might be worth considering sizing up from 8" to 10" to 10" to 12" nominal chuck diameter (perhaps). Additional length does not add significantly to the price, but sizing up to 10 to 12" will, (also keep an eye on maximum RPM not being too slow for small parts etc.).


PlutoniumSalmon writes " As such we never know what will come through the door. All we know is that we need a lathe with as much capacity as possible and a y axis (will need it for modular furniture parts. That is why the machines are so varied. What we need is the center of the Venn diagram. And that is why I asked your guys for help."


If you "Data mine" this forum you can pretty much find at least one horror story on just about every machine ever made; it's just more about how things are locally supported. Some makes and models are absolutely reliable and others have had their teething problems and need time to have the wrinkles ironed out. The overall patterns start to emerge from many many many different accounts but also bear in mind a lot has changed in the industry over the past 5 years. I tend to think of it more like a horse race (than a ven diagram) where I run the different builders/brands/quotes/probable support issues all in parallel; So I have two or three main contenders that have been weeded out from a field of about twenty, but any one of those could "win" by a nose and it's still possible that a "horse" with long odds from the rear of the pack also moves up to win by a nose (you see that a lot on this forum, unexpected winners at the last minute). I think honestly the machine tool industry is very competitive and we are in essence almost spoilt for choice in some instances.

So taking a pair of scissors to what you wrote: Plutonium salmon excerpts: " We are not a typical job shop.... In fact we are in many ways backward... we cater to people who have not found anyone to work with... low in volume, complex... What we do is primarily work of an artistic nature. ... personal work... furniture designer and fabricator... Camera accessories... race car simulator controls. As such we never know what will come through the door..."

And distilling what you are saying... AND


Plutonium Salmon : "what I am trying to determine is how happy you are when you get to the shop in the morning with the choice that you made."

Here's the thing , A lot of the machinists that set up and operate such machines do not have so much of a choice or say in what machines are purchased (unfortunately). So something that would be a minor issue to me or you for a full time operator can become an amazing pain in the arse or source of major frustration to efficient and non-awkward operation when the machine is being operated in three shifts almost 24/7; as opposed to me or you pottering about with 50 different balls being juggled all at the same time.


So its more of a case of as you indicate "trying to determine is how happy YOU [edit: plutonium salmon] are [edit: going to be] when you get to the shop in the morning with the choice that you made"


So I try to look for things that are NOT going to piss me off in the morning :-)

I have to admit being a designer/technologist I get pissed off/vexed when I spend a lot of money on a product that is badly designed and has terrible fit or finish, lousy materials due to cheap and ill thought out paint work and starts to look like hell in a short period of time. Basically it's really easy to spend as much $ on a single small to medium sized machine tool as it is on a Ferrari... But at least the folks at the Ferrari factory make an effort with their materials and fit and finish!

So YES you are using CAD/CAM but the control can make a difference. If I was in your shoes I would check out Hurco, but make sure that if you go for any of their multi axis lathes make sure that they really work! They are not going to have a 40" between centers with Y axis config (I think), only shorter lathes. I think for prototyping and also having other operators that are not true machinists assisting the production of parts Hurco might not be a bad fit for you guys. Frankly an LB3000 EX may be overkill for what you want to do but also depends on how important surface finishes are to you. The Genos L300 (long bed version) MYW with OSP control (that's dual spindle and Y axis) might be a good compromise; reliable well supported etc. Mazak, the general consensus is that the simple machines go well, and the more complex ones take time to get sorted out, and support can be a bit iffy/sketchy even if you are a big shop not far from Kentucky. I think you will probably like the Mazatrol and Nexus II control but that may keep you locked into the Mazak way of doing things for years to come, (that may or may not be a desirable thing for you).

Just for the hell of it I offer an alternative scheme... Just to challenge things a little bit. Y or 4th axis capability really only saves about 25% of your time but is a lot more difficult to set up and configure, tool and program especially for one off custom work. Personally I think Y axis lathe is the wrong "tool" for you guys. Given that you are not making mission critical structural parts for an F-35 fighter plane... etc. I would explore simple two axis long bed lathe or simple MC config, (possibly) Hurco, Do the Y axis stuff on 4th rotary axis on mill and seriously consider purchasing/saving up for a small 5 axis mill/VMC such as the Hurco VM10UHSi. I know with furniture you can have a lot of non-orthogonal/non-rectilinear fittings and geometry, same for camera accessories, race car simulation controls etc etc... But on the other hand I can imagine in the minds eye if you have 50 furniture fittings and joints etc. that that could be widgetted out on a 4th axis lathe, but to my way of thinking the extra $100K that is needed to pull that off might be better spent on 5 axis (positional) capability on a mill.

Whatever you do let us know how it goes as I'd personally be interested to see how you guys make out. In my case I have one hand tied behind my back as precision and surface finish are the number 1 criteria as I have to bend or mold myself around whatever machines are out there that can deliver that basic technical capability.

Good Luck PlutoniumSalmon... :-)

Cheers,

Eric

plutoniumsalmon said:

Hello and Thank you.

Yes that is a problem and the reason for it is rather complicated. We are not a typical job shop. In fact we are in many ways backward. Unlike a regular shop that has fixed jobs and specialties and as such has specific machine requirments, we cater to people who have not found anyone to work with. Either the parts are difficult and low in volume, complex, or constrained by something else. What we do is primarily work of an artistic nature. What we like to do is jobs no one else will do because thats where we were when we got started with our personal work. I am for example, a furniture designer and fabricator, my partner makes and designs Assistant Camera accessories. For example our two upcoming jobs are a modular furniture system and prototyping race car simulator controls. As such we never know what will come through the door. All we know is that we need a lathe with as much capacity as possible and a y axis (will need it for modular furniture parts. That is why the machines are so varied. What we need is the center of the Venn diagram. And that is why I asked your guys for help.

I am, in a way, trying to distill fact from the vapor of nuance. If someone responds with the fact that an okuma has a great control then it moves towards the center. If someone else does not like the Mazak tailstock then it moves out and so on. You guys have have way more experience then we will ever do, you run your machines 24/7 in most cases as such what I am trying to determine is how happy you are when you get to the shop in the morning with the choice that you made.

Anyways. Thank you so much for the description of the machines and the sage advice. I will take all of this into consideration and refine the diagram.

Click to expand...

When you say capacity - do you mean as in production throughput, or machining size/volume? From the nature of your posts, it sounds like you want a larger machining area/volume, correct?

It sounds like what you really need is a large mill/turn machine, but that brings us to another important question - What is your budget? A few other points...

-I can understand wanting a longer bed-length machine, but realize, you're probably only going to use the first 50% of it's length 95% of the time. If you don't specifically need all of that room for live tools, anything in the 1-1.5meter bed length range will be more than plenty...

-Moving up to the next spindle taper will add significant cost. And if you don't specifically need the thru-spindle capacity, or don't plan on doing a lot of larger-diameter/interrupted turning cuts, I don't think it's worth it.

-They "Y" axis is handy, and so are live tools, but understand their intent first... A 120mm "Y" axis stroke, and 7hp live-tool spindles are no substitute for a real milling machine. They are there to cut small, tedious features, which would be a waste of labor to transfer the part to a mill... Think keyways on a shaft, a slot/keyway across threads for a bearing nut, A cotter-pin hole in a shaft, etc. Yes, you can do more for them, but understand that's not their primary intent.

-That being said, consider the work that you "anticipate" If it's larger dimension, and you foresee lots of milling, consider a lathe and a mill, like others have suggested.

-I also don't recall - do you already have a mill?

-Sub-spindles - Again, unless you foresee a specific need, I don't think it's worth it. Maybe you do have parts that could benefit from it, but only you know that.

-It sounds like what you really need is a big mill/turn machine. But would you be served just as well by a 4-axis mill, and a 2-axis lathe?

Thank you Cameraman.

Actually after seeing a few ferraris and driving one, I would argue that fit and finish are not their strong suit.

The 4th axis mill point is a valid one, the problem we have with that is that There are limitations to it. We have one of the VF2 and we use it a lot, we just cant do certain parts on it without going crazy with the setups. I know that the Y axis lathe we are discussing is not correct for it but we can do complex fateners on it and quiet a few joint modules on it much faster then doing them individually on the 4th. Also the reason for the 4th was that the price jump from something with live tooling and c-axis interpolation was not that steep. But of course there is no point arguing that as our hope that programming the thing would not be too difficult is something that we will only see in the future. Maybe it will work out.

As far as the Hurco, I have contacted them about a week ago and have yet to hear anything. Also their Z is limited, and we do appreciate the validity of having as much z travel as possible. So far the prices have been stacking out where we can get a long genos without the second spindle or a shorter takisawa with 2 spindles and 10" less maximum z cut (40 vs 30). The advantage of the takisawa is that you can technically put a 2" bar through the sub spindle and thus feed really long things. Yes this could be done on a mill but for some reason I think it will come up for a lathe as well.

The horse race is a good analogy. We are spoilt by choice and this is why I was data mining, because in the end of the day what I think will seal it is not the big physical stuff but rather the metaphysical little, like the tech calling me out of the blue because he was near our office and wanted to check upon us.

Anyways. Thank you guys for your help. Ill keep you all in the loop. Sometime next week you will know.

Oh, and the Hwacheon guy just called.

plutoniumsalmon said:

Hello and Thank you.

Yes that is a problem and the reason for it is rather complicated. We are not a typical job shop. In fact we are in many ways backward. Unlike a regular shop that has fixed jobs and specialties and as such has specific machine requirments, we cater to people who have not found anyone to work with. Either the parts are difficult and low in volume, complex, or constrained by something else. What we do is primarily work of an artistic nature. What we like to do is jobs no one else will do because thats where we were when we got started with our personal work. I am for example, a furniture designer and fabricator, my partner makes and designs Assistant Camera accessories. For example our two upcoming jobs are a modular furniture system and prototyping race car simulator controls. As such we never know what will come through the door. All we know is that we need a lathe with as much capacity as possible and a y axis (will need it for modular furniture parts. That is why the machines are so varied. What we need is the center of the Venn diagram. And that is why I asked your guys for help.

I am, in a way, trying to distill fact from the vapor of nuance. If someone responds with the fact that an okuma has a great control then it moves towards the center. If someone else does not like the Mazak tailstock then it moves out and so on. You guys have have way more experience then we will ever do, you run your machines 24/7 in most cases as such what I am trying to determine is how happy you are when you get to the shop in the morning with the choice that you made.

Anyways. Thank you so much for the description of the machines and the sage advice. I will take all of this into consideration and refine the diagram.

Click to expand...

I have an old Okuma and I love it - it's a beast and will hold half a thou all day long without any care on my part and produces great finishes. I love Okuma controls - you can't go wrong with the Okuma.

Having said that, I am the guy that keeps suggesting the Takisawa and wants to get one myself. I am not a huge fan of Fanuc controls but the Takisawa comes with Fanuc's higher end control that should have most everything in it (but definitely check).

The reason I say the Takisawa is two fold. First off, the machine has better specs in terms of speed and power than both the Mazak and the Okuma. 4500rpm on the Mazak for live tools, 6000rpm for the Takisawa. 30hp spindle on the Takisawa, 20hp on the Mazak and Okuma. 10hp on the live tooling motor on the Takisawa, 5hp on the Mazak and Okuma. 4200rpm main spindle on the Takisawa, 3000 on the Okuma and 3500 on the Mazak. More Y axis travel on the Takisawa than either the Mazak or Okuma. More X travel too. Bigger bar capacity on the Takisawa. And faster rapids. In all the spec areas, the Takisawa is just a little bit (or a lot, depending on your perspective) better. I'm not a huge fan of specification wars because I have an Okuma and I know what it can do, and I doubt there are many jobs that you would run that would need the higher power of the Takisawa... but having said that, that little bit extra Y axis, that two inches bigger X - that will let you get jobs done that you might just not be able to do in the others. And the higher speed live tooling will be something you use a lot, especially if you cut aluminum - so the Takisawa will get your jobs done quicker, and take heavier cuts.

The second reason I say Takisawa is the sub spindle. IMO it really is a HUGE advantage having a sub. You are like me and don't really know what you will be cutting next month or next year. $10k is very little considering the prices of these machines... and I'd rather have a sub and (usually) not need it than need it and not have it. Because you aren't doing production work on a known part, you will never know if/when you might need that sub. You can use it for more than just part hand off and second operations - you can use it as a programmable tailstock or even for some interesting tooling or fixturing options.

I don't see why anyone would buy the Mazak when you can get the Okuma for pretty much the same money.. and I don't think you could go wrong with either the Okuma or Takisawa... but between the two, the machine with a sub spindle AND higher capacity in all axes, AND more power, more RPM's and more bar capacity, AND faster spindle speeds and movement speeds seems like the way to go. Yamazen being top notch in service is just icing on the cake.

My opinion - no affiliation to any of the companies involved.

mkd said:

sounds like a 3 axis router with an add-on 4 axis rotary could be another and much cheaper possibility.
wonder if any routers could do some simple turning?

edit: cameraman made some good points below.
i'm also thinking a high end live tool Y axis lathe is not what you need.
even a ratty used 2 axis lathe and a beat up 4axis mill will give you more capability where mere-mortals are running the equipment.
you can prolly put this together for WELL UNDER 100k.

Click to expand...

Hello.

We got one of those. We use it for wood and vacuum molds. We also got a rotary on our VF2 we cut mostly camera accessories on that. What we want to do on the lathe is cut an occasional batch of fasteners that have live tooling and c features and extrapolating from that a y axis is not much more money to purchace.

SRT Mike said:

I have an old Okuma and I love it - it's a beast and will hold half a thou all day long without any care on my part and produces great finishes. I love Okuma controls - you can't go wrong with the Okuma.

Having said that, I am the guy that keeps suggesting the Takisawa and wants to get one myself. I am not a huge fan of Fanuc controls but the Takisawa comes with Fanuc's higher end control that should have most everything in it (but definitely check).

The reason I say the Takisawa is two fold. First off, the machine has better specs in terms of speed and power than both the Mazak and the Okuma. 4500rpm on the Mazak for live tools, 6000rpm for the Takisawa. 30hp spindle on the Takisawa, 20hp on the Mazak and Okuma. 10hp on the live tooling motor on the Takisawa, 5hp on the Mazak and Okuma. 4200rpm main spindle on the Takisawa, 3000 on the Okuma and 3500 on the Mazak. More Y axis travel on the Takisawa than either the Mazak or Okuma. More X travel too. Bigger bar capacity on the Takisawa. And faster rapids. In all the spec areas, the Takisawa is just a little bit (or a lot, depending on your perspective) better. I'm not a huge fan of specification wars because I have an Okuma and I know what it can do, and I doubt there are many jobs that you would run that would need the higher power of the Takisawa... but having said that, that little bit extra Y axis, that two inches bigger X - that will let you get jobs done that you might just not be able to do in the others. And the higher speed live tooling will be something you use a lot, especially if you cut aluminum - so the Takisawa will get your jobs done quicker, and take heavier cuts.

The second reason I say Takisawa is the sub spindle. IMO it really is a HUGE advantage having a sub. You are like me and don't really know what you will be cutting next month or next year. $10k is very little considering the prices of these machines... and I'd rather have a sub and (usually) not need it than need it and not have it. Because you aren't doing production work on a known part, you will never know if/when you might need that sub. You can use it for more than just part hand off and second operations - you can use it as a programmable tailstock or even for some interesting tooling or fixturing options.

I don't see why anyone would buy the Mazak when you can get the Okuma for pretty much the same money.. and I don't think you could go wrong with either the Okuma or Takisawa... but between the two, the machine with a sub spindle AND higher capacity in all axes, AND more power, more RPM's and more bar capacity, AND faster spindle speeds and movement speeds seems like the way to go. Yamazen being top notch in service is just icing on the cake.

My opinion - no affiliation to any of the companies involved.

Click to expand...

Thank you. Thats what we thought. Our only concern, is that it seems almost too good to be true. For not much money its a lot more machine than the Genos and its made in Japan. Yes, I saw that it has fit and finish issues (it was peeing coolant when I saw it) but it seems great besides that.