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  1. #321
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    One thing that is kinda nice about some of these Universals (layout) is that you can use the C-axis table as an in situ pallet carousel almost. So if you can't reach for an MX 330 with the 10 PC option or similar then putting multiple parts on one table and making fixture plates almost (old school like in aerospace) could give you some efficiency gains.



    A bit like this ^^^

    And



    This ^^^ continued.

    Kinda interesting as the fixture has the blocks / stock parallel/ orthogonal to the XY plane, not tilted or sloped like the ESPRIT example earlier on in the thread.

    Will be interesting to see how "They/ Titans of CNC " will hit the other sides of the parts in this set up.

    But at least the workpiece can be indexed into the 'Sweet spot" of the UMC-750 in this case and presumably the same can be done on the UMC-500.
    Last edited by cameraman; 09-12-2019 at 09:30 PM.

  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post

    * When I say "Bad" the machine is not built to 0.0002" hand scaping and fitting for the whole machine and build geometry. But has broader build and alignment tolerances and geometry which in the end may not be that bad at all if you know what's going on and maybe how to compensate for all that skillfully. Rather than be lost in miasma of combined errors.
    Isn't that true with most all machines? Not being argumentative.

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  4. #323
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    Geometry Guide - UMC-Series

    ^^^^ Geometry of HAAS UMC series , UMC-750, -100 and UMC 500

    So as some have said HAAS is very open / has good information available about certain aspects of their machines. (Mike1974 was making that point)

    @Thesidetalker , if you are out there does that help solve some of the setting and paradoxical alignment issues with your UMC-750 ?

    The procedure and alignment tolerances of the spindle and the table and the foundation/ feet leveling procedures seem to be the same for the UMC-750 and the UMC 500 .

    __________________________________________________ __________________________

    Key things of this machine versus hand scraped and fitted and adjusted is the use of shims...

    This is something 2outof3 has mentioned many times in passing over the years.

    HAAS here use shims on one side of the bridge and also the spindle head stock assembly.

    I'm in two minds about shims in that they can tolerate massive forces and in some cases I wonder if they help improve surface contact (over the ground surfaces) but maybe reduce rigidity (shrugging shoulders ).
    Last edited by cameraman; 09-12-2019 at 09:31 PM.

  5. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Isn't that true with most all machines? Not being argumentative.
    Up to a point , I'm not out to compare Hermle Build geometry which is pretty stunning (which makes things more of a no brainer) versus the paradoxical stuff that thesidetalker had described and why HAAS does not normally expect opposing bores to align up better than to one or two thousands …

    My question to that is how sensitive is the rotational movement on the HAAS UMC 750 and will the UMC-500 be a smidge better ?

    To really break it down... How far can one go to Fix sh*t by DTI's and probing without having to tweak various fixtures directly.

    IF you have a reference surface or precision tooling ball, what is the smallest movement that can be made on the control or pendant by jogging the B axis ?

    In "Instrument" terms that we would refer to as the "Sensitivity of rotational movement" smallest physical movement you can make / adjustment (as separate from back lash) . (Without having to randomly slew back and fourth small increments until you accidently "Zero out" your DTI and reference surfaces. ). "Sensitivity" of movement is never quoted for 5 axis machines.


    My HFO maintains that it IS possible to probe or use a DTI and correct any rotational errors there may be on a HAAS UMC 750.

    I'm just wondering to what degree (rotationally) like +/- 4 tenths over 8" (+/- 0.0004" over 8" ) , two tenths ? A tenth (+/- 0.0001" over 8")?? 8" being a pretty typical height for fixturing on a HAAS UMC .

    The other thing is @Fal Grunt that you would have direct experience of … IF every critical feature of a given part has higher tolerances and needs to be put on a surface / profile grinder (before or after) or even a jig grinder to correct stuff. If that's your process and work flow then does it matter if your CNC 5 axis stuff is only to about a thousandths ?

    So if you are always brining in +/- 0.001" ----> To +/- 0.00008" (using other methods after cnc machining) for key surfaces and features does a super accurate 5 axis machine make any difference anyway ?


    ____________


    Similarly if you are using secondary metal finishing processes does it really matter how amazeballs you surface finishes might be (cosmetically) as that is ALL cleaned up or hidden in other ways... [Assuming high end mechanical parts rather than card carrying mold work.]. (for in house product development for release, not job-shop where the client sees the "naked" CNC's parts rather than an end user that buys your system / product where most of the surfaces and parts are naturaly hidden. )

    Kinda interesting that a lot of really high precision shops have HAAS's 'cuz they have a ton of specialized grinding and lapping equipment anyway where surfaces are all corrected from at least two thousandth's down to cray cray tight tolerances.

    [+ Natural movement and distortion of a lot materials that also have to be accounted for (time and technique for stress relaxation + released locked in in stresses that can make super high accurate machines less relevant unless you can program complex counter geometries to help cancel out some of those effects ).].

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  7. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    One thing that is kinda nice about some of these Universals (layout) is that you can use the C-axis table as an in situ pallet carousel almost. So if you can't reach for an MX 330 with the 10 PC option or similar then putting multiple parts on one table and making fixture plates almost (old school like in aerospace) could give you some efficiency gains.
    I saw a Video of Hope Technologies using a Matsura 5 axis to produce their brake calipers. They had a fixture that would hold 5 calipers and do the complex 5 axis roughing and then transfer to a Brother pallet for final machining. Very cool setup.

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    OT....
    But is it just me that shudders at the fact that there's 2 clamps opposing 2 clamps, rather than a straight fixed jaw on one side, and just the 2 clamps pushing against it?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails capture.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wsurfer View Post
    I saw a Video of Hope Technologies using a Matsura 5 axis to produce their brake calipers. They had a fixture that would hold 5 calipers and do the complex 5 axis roughing and then transfer to a Brother pallet for final machining. Very cool setup.
    That sounds awesome , I should check that out !

    Love the idea of nested parts on tilted angles that still allow the spindle full access to as much of the part as possible (without interference) and cool to use precision 3 axis set up on precision fixtures for critical bores or other feature or even have a high rpm spindle like on a Brother for certain tasks.

    Sometimes it's hard to beat that 3 axis vertical set of relatively fixed datums on a precision solid machine.

    Some of the stuff we need to do is of a similar complexity to a racing / sports / break caliper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    OT....
    But is it just me that shudders at the fact that there's 2 clamps opposing 2 clamps, rather than a straight fixed jaw on one side, and just the 2 clamps pushing against it?
    ya not how i'd design it...

  13. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    OT....
    But is it just me that shudders at the fact that there's 2 clamps opposing 2 clamps, rather than a straight fixed jaw on one side, and just the 2 clamps pushing against it?
    That's an interesting point,

    I'm wondering if they have a trick up their sleeves for when they flip the parts over ~ as it's billed as a three axis part , so I'm wondering if they are going to turn it into a 4th axis application (with enhanced -ish automation) rather than full 5 .

    Also wondering about milled features top side and then the possible use of cylindrical Mitibite expansion clamps (tapered / split expansion units) when they flip the parts over.

    Titans of CNC in their older videos seem more aware of Aerospace type fixture plates and design and proper use of diamond pins an all that. Stuff that can register to 0.0002".

    I suspect big time they are gearing up for the release of the HAAS UMC -500 as that seems to solve a LOT of problems for them on the educational and public outreach "Thing" + Titan's academy and future wants for a large national training center. With machines as far as the eye can see.

    Gilroy has been pushing 5 axis big time + ANY type of enhanced methods that point towards efficiency gains. [Difficult to implement high $ robots in schools etc. so fixturing and ganging work etc. in smart ways.].

    I think maybe the two sided toed in gripping in the video maybe cheaper / quicker idea for schools to implement.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________

    I think Eric from orangevise said the UMC-500s will be backordered for at least 9 months once they are available.

  14. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    That's an interesting point,

    I'm wondering if they have a trick up their sleeves for when they flip the parts over ~ as it's billed as a three axis part , so I'm wondering if they are going to turn it into a 4th axis application (with enhanced -ish automation) rather than full 5 .

    Also wondering about milled features top side and then the possible use of cylindrical Mitibite expansion clamps (tapered / split expansion units) when they flip the parts over.

    Titans of CNC in their older videos seem more aware of Aerospace type fixture plates and design and proper use of diamond pins an all that. Stuff that can register to 0.0002".

    I suspect big time they are gearing up for the release of the HAAS UMC -500 as that seems to solve a LOT of problems for them on the educational and public outreach "Thing" + Titan's academy and future wants for a large national training center. With machines as far as the eye can see.

    Gilroy has been pushing 5 axis big time + ANY type of enhanced methods that point towards efficiency gains. [Difficult to implement high $ robots in schools etc. so fixturing and ganging work etc. in smart ways.].

    I think maybe the two sided toed in gripping in the video maybe cheaper / quicker idea for schools to implement.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________

    I think Eric from orangevise said the UMC-500s will be backordered for at least 9 months once they are available.
    little birdie told me 5 weeks max from order date to machine on the floor...

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    little birdie told me 5 weeks max from order date to machine on the floor...
    No way …

    :-)

    ------> ?

  16. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    No way …

    :-)

    ------> ?
    @empwoer your supposed to go 'WAY !"...

    or not …



    This ^^^ dropped about ten minutes ago, so it's the YouTube version of the test Vimeo videos …

    But pretty much the same but on HAAAAAASSSSS'es 's zzz - channel.

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    https://www.nabtescomotioncontrol.co...g-nabtesco.pdf

    neat info on the cycloidal drives

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  19. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    @empwoer your supposed to go 'WAY !"...

    or not …



    This ^^^ dropped about ten minutes ago, so it's the YouTube version of the test Vimeo videos …

    But pretty much the same but on HAAAAAASSSSS'es 's zzz - channel.
    sorry, damn work keeping me away from forums... :P

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  21. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    Those are pretty cool, that cycloidal drive should enable the HAAS UMC to take a real pounding.

    Will be interesting how accurately they (HAAS) can calibrate the backlash out of the mechanism , hence the +/- 20 arc seconds positional accuracy.

    The structure for smaller footprint should be proportionately more rigid than the HAAS UMC 750 in spite of being a less massive machine. Still a lot of shims go into that machine at various points so probably after time the "frame" / alignment of everything will need a tune up after a few years.

    Yup work that thing...


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