Can we play the machine valuation game? Old Fadals, and an old Mazak.
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  1. #1
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    Default Can we play the machine valuation game? Old Fadals, and an old Mazak.

    Hey All...

    I need to throw some #'s on these machines and I have pretty much no clue where they are selling now.

    First up.
    '93 Fadal 4020.
    extended 28" Z..
    The normal stuff. 21 tools, 10k 2 speed 15/22.5hp spindle.
    DC drives, does not have rigid tapping..
    Plumbed for TSC but all the seals are shot.
    Heavy scoring on the Z ways...
    Yaskawa spindle drive.
    Tool retention is really good,
    X axis ball screw is pretty sloppy on the positive end. Pretty good everywhere else.
    New Y axis motor.
    Needs a new monitor.

    Second up... '94 Fadal, same basic machine as above.. except its not plumbed for TSC,
    this one also has a newer Yaskawa spindle drive and no rigid tapping.
    4th axis.
    This machine is tight, and clean (at least inside the cabinets).
    Spindle is on its last legs.

    Last up.
    '84 Mazak QT20 the big one. 10" chuck, a bastard Howa that nobody will admit exists.
    Its air, not hydraulic, so it has no drawtube. 3" through. (was 2.75 until I took a boring bar to it)
    T1 control. 12 or 14" diameter on the X, a meter on the Z.
    20hp continuous, 25 for 30minutes, 2 speed gear box, 3600 max rpm (I think its 3600)
    She'll hold tenths all day long once she warms up. She'll drift off about .001 until
    she warms up.
    400 ipm rapids (if you can call that rapid)
    Something wrong in the parameters, and even the tech couldn't figure it out. You can't
    open and close the chuck with an M code, can't use the tailstock with an M code, and it
    won't change gears automatically.

    I just need some realistic $$ #'s to put on this stuff. So if you would all be so kind...
    I'd appreciate it.






    And just for fun... Here are those big giant C-clamps in action... Its always fun
    when you get to see stuff you made in use.. If you can call holding a door open "action".


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    IS this value to sell as in real market selling prices or value to insure against to replace in event of a claimable event eg fire - flood?

    IMHO the 2 should have a pretty big numerical diffrence. + in the event of replacing one a like for like of that age may well not be running when it hits your floor, early 90's is getting old old now electronic wise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post
    IS this value to sell as in real market selling prices or value to insure against to replace in event of a claimable event eg fire - flood?

    IMHO the 2 should have a pretty big numerical diffrence. + in the event of replacing one a like for like of that age may well not be running when it hits your floor, early 90's is getting old old now electronic wise.
    Price to sell.

    Forklift is on the fritz, so I guess a price that you would pay me for those machines... I'd probably like to know
    the price you would be willing to pay if I could load it (if my forklift worked) and the price you'd be willing to
    pay arranging your own rigger to get 'em out of here... Last time I used a rigger, it was $2600 since they have to
    come from ABQ, though there may be somebody in El Paso... You can also rent a 15k lift out of El Paso for about
    12 or 1500 a week, delivered to Hatch, and picked up.

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    If you are talking auction values, I'd put the 2 fadals in the 10-15k range and the lathe - my guess is high teens, but I am taking a swag here. If they power up, run, and make good parts they should be more than scrap, but you may be able to part them out for more than the running machine.

    I wish I'd have known you were close to El Paso, was there earlier this spring on business.

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    The Mazak is a beast, I have a QT20N with T2 control, hydraulic chuck, and modernized sheet metal. With that being said the T1 machines are getting long in the tooth, thus yours is worth $8k or so, probably less. It all depends on the buyer, and what he's looking for, and how close he is to you. The ideal buyer has one just like it with the T1 control, and is looking for another machine not so much for added capacity but as a backup.

    The Fadals with the 88 controls are a little more "mainstream" still, so they should bring $10 to $15k, again depending on the buyer.

    Now if you have to sell quick, all bet's are off as to what you could get. Possibly next to nothing?

    Not trying to be an ass, just being straight up with you Bob.

    ToolCat Greg

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    Well I hafta ask why? Hanging it up?

    Brent

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    Quote Originally Posted by yardbird View Post
    Well I hafta ask why? Hanging it up?

    Brent
    You've got to toss me some numbers before I tell you.

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    Holy, those things on the QT20 must be them box ways y'all are always talking about...They must weigh near as much as my whole turret assembly!

    Hows the market down there? If theres work than the 10K for fadals and 10k for the QT20 seems about right.

    If you're anywhere near the oil patch you'd probably be looking closer to scrap price...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManualEd View Post
    Holy, those things on the QT20 must be them box ways y'all are always talking about...They must weigh near as much as my whole turret assembly!

    Hows the market down there? If theres work than the 10K for fadals and 10k for the QT20 seems about right.

    If you're anywhere near the oil patch you'd probably be looking closer to scrap price...
    That lathe came from Hobbs or somewhere out there, oil field work, it apparently spent its whole life
    threading the ends of something or other.. Our local Mazak dealer sold them a new lathe and the deal
    was that they had to take away the old one. It had lost the parameters and wasn't running for a year
    and a half.

    It was brought back to their place, I put a down payment on it... Then the tech went to work on it
    because he wanted to buy it for himself. He got it running... But I had already put money down. I paid $4k.

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    I would say anywhere from $2K to 15K. You really should have someone go through them. If the table wobbles even .005 then I would run. And would you know if it does? Heavy scoring on the Z most likely from chips means the turcite isn't gone. When the Z turns black its too late and the machine needs a rebuild ($18K from M&J...complete rebuild). 1993 was a pivot point from Inch to Metric ballscrew. Your machine may actual have the newer metric ballscrews capable of 700ipm rapids. That -3 processor you would have in a 1993 should have a software module capable of changing that parameter in the SETP area. You can boost rapids if it does have metric ballscrew. With inch your screwed unless you machine the column. Fixing the head on that is about $1500 to machine and install new turcite but shipping is another factor...and time. Fadal weak spots were always the controller but with heavy use the DC motors, ballscrews, thrust bearings, spindle drives (Yaskawa is a good conversion drive for them) and if the turcite is gone or the gibs were out of adjustment too long your looking at some big $$$ to fix. I would never show a picture of a machine like that...full of chips and with the cover off the Z. Your not going to help potential buyers. They may be great machines but man...clean it up Bob.

    The Mazak is another mystery machine that needs to be gone through. The air chuck should be checked for pressure. The spindle and boxed ways should also be checked. Mazak used some funky hydraulic, electrical, spindle drive and goofy air changing gear speed changers from 1982-1985. It could be a gem which would be good to see.

    I guess the bigger point is you might not get an accurate valuation on your machines online. From a buyers perspective I would consider all 3 as needing minor to major repair and would be hesitant to offer more than $.40 per pound

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    Clean them up and put them on EBay with $5k mins.

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    The lathe would be lucky to fetch $5k IMO.

    The Fadals should fetch $12-15k. If you could get the rigid tapping to work on both, I think the $15k is more attainable.

    Machine prices have been climbing lately, so who knows.

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    I'm not actually trying to sell them, its not for insurance, its for something else.

    I've been told $17k & $23k for the fadals, and $20k for the mazak.

    Seems a little high to me (a lot), I just want to get some guesstimates from
    knowledgeable folks.

    Keep the guesses coming please. I appreciate all the responses so far.. Thanx.

    Also, paid 12,600 for the '93 and 24k for the 94. The 24k seemed a bit high, but it was
    exactly what I wanted. A twin to the '93.

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    Maybe I'm an idiot, but I paid a little north of $27k for a 4020HT Fadal at auction a few years ago. It has the 10k RPM spindle with rigid tapping. Was told by a tech that claimed to have done service work on the machines there that the bottom end had recently been reworked. ALL the ways are slick. It's a 2006 factory reman. Has the LCD (or maybe LED) color display, standard Z travel, AC servos, Yaskawa G7 Spindle drive, no TSC. Needs a new spindle though.

    I honestly think my saving grace was the fact there was an inch of snow/ice on the ground the day of the auction and the big money was too chicken to come out. I was the only bidder on the floor for the machine, while the other two were on the phone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WayneC369 View Post
    Maybe I'm an idiot, but I paid a little north of $27k for a 4020HT Fadal
    I'd pay that for a near new machine also.

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    Personally I'd have a hard time convincing myself put any more than 5-8k on any of them.
    Machines as old as I am worry me a lot on the control/electrical side, and $$,$$$.$$ or scrap the machine when it goes bad and it probably will happen when it gets moved...
    Add in time to move them, clean things up and what not and whatever else a new owner would decide to change/repair and so on.

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    What you have 10k machines needing 10 k worth of repair to get there.

    Now you or I could run them as is and do fine.

    But very few potential buyers can or want to.

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    Bob,

    Because of how poorly the machines show in your pictures, plus the noted problems, the sad fact is I wouldn't take them if you gave them to me. If I was next door to you maybe, but considering the rigging to get them out of your shop and up to Seattle, no.

    They might be a great opportunity for a start up low on cash, but in my situation I'm no longer interested in "fixers".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobw View Post

    And just for fun... Here are those big giant C-clamps in action... Its always fun
    when you get to see stuff you made in use.. If you can call holding a door open "action".

    B1's can't hold their gear doors open? WTF?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ipmmiller View Post
    B1's can't hold their gear doors open? WTF?
    I don't question it, I just make it. I wonder if it has to do with no hydraulic pressure while its not
    running? A one way valve is 1 less pound of bombs or fuel they can carry, and one more thing to break.

    Would anybody object, based on the valuations given here, of me tagging values of 12k('93 Fadal),
    14k('94 with a 4th) and 6k(the Mazak lathe) on these machines? As a "fair" value..

    I know prices can swing wildly based on location, moon phase, rigging and a million other things.

    A verbal (typed) consensus or objection would help me out, if y'all don't mind. I'm not buying them,
    I'm not selling them, I'm just making a point(not to you guys here). A point that is quite important to me.


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